HARVARD COLLEGE LIBRARY

GIFT OF THE

GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES

V- ^ \s^>

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES NEW YORK AREA— PART 5

(SUMMER CAMPS)

Since these hearings are consecutively paged they are arranged by page number instead of aljiiabe tic ally by title.

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

EIGHTY-FOURTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

JULY 25, 28, 29, AND AUGUST 1, 1955

Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities

INCLUDING INDEX

HARVA.JO COLLEGE LIBRARY

DEPOSITED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT

SEP 19 1955

UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE G6838 WASHINGTON : 1955

/

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES NEW YORK AREA— PART 5

(SUMMER CAMPS)

HEARINGS

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

EIGHTY-FOURTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

JULY 25, 28, 29, AND AUGUST 1, 1955

Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities

INCLUDING INDEX

HARVA.^O COLLEGE LIBRARY

DEPOSITED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT

SEP 19 1955

UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 66838 WASHINGTON : 1955

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES

United States House of Representatives

FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois

CLYDE DOYLE, California BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York

JAMES B. FRAZIER, Jr., Tennessee DONALD L. JACKSON, California

EDWIN E. WILLIS, Louisiana GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio

• Thomas W. Bealb, Sr., Chief Clerk II

CONTENTS

July 25, 1955: Testimony of — Paw

Stanley Wechkin __ 1327

July 28, 1955: testimony of—

Dave Green 1345

Kenneth Friedman 1362

Norman Studer 1372

July 29, 1955: Testimony of—

Elton T. Gustafson 1379

Elliott Sullivan 1383

Herbert Gutman 1394

Morris Salz 1400

August 1, 1955: Testimony of —

Fred Briehl 1407

Index _ i

III

Public Law 601, 79th Congress

The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress [1946], chapter 753, 2d session, which provides:

Be it enacted hy tJie Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, * * *

PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

RuxE X

SEC 121. STANDING COMMITTEES

• ♦**•*•

17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.

Rule XI

POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES

• **♦♦•♦

(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.

(A) Un-American activities.

(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a wliole or by subcommit- tee, is authorized to malve from time to time investigations of (i) the extent, character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, (ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa- ganda tliat is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and (iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any necessary remedial legislation.

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi- gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such, times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person designated by any such chairman or member.

RULES ADOPTED BY THE 84TH CONGRESS

House Resolution 5, January 5, 1955 • *••**•

RULE X STANDING COMMITTEES

1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Congress, the following standing committees :

******* (q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members. *******

Rule XI

POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES *******

17. Committee on Un-American Activities.

(a) Un-American activities.

(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee, is authorized to make from time to time, investigations of (1) the extent, char- acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, (2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American prop- aganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu- tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any necessary remedial legislation.

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi- gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance of -such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any member designated by such chairman, and may be served by any person desig- nated by any such chairman or member.

VI

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES, NEW YORK AREA— PART 5

(Summer Camps)

MONDAY, JULY 25, 1955

United States House of Representatives, Subcommittee or the Committee on Un-American Activities,

Washington, D. G. executive session ^

The subcommittee met at 10 a. m., pursuant to call, in room 227, House Office Building, Hon. Francis E. Walter (chairman) presiding.

Committee members present: Representative Francis E. Walter.

Staff members present: Thomas W. Beale, Sr., chief clerk; Court- ney Owens and Raymond Collins, investigators.

The Chairman, The committee will come to order.

Do you swear the testimony you are about to give w^ill be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Wechkin. I do.

TESTIMONY OF STANLEY WECHKIN

Mr. Oavens. Will you give the committee your full name, please ?

Mr. Wechkin. My full name is Stanley Wechkin.

Mr. Owens. Wlien and where were you born, Mr. Wechkin ?

Mr. Wechkin. I was born November 2, 1934, at the Lutheran Hos- pital at Brooklyn, N. Y.

Mr. Owens. IVliere do you presently reside ?

Mr. Wechkin. I have a couple of addresses right now. One is the Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 361:th Infantry Regiment at Fort Dix, N. J., and my home address is 458 East 96th Street, Brooklyn, N. Y.

Mr. Owens. I take it, then, you are currently in the Armed Forces ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. When did you enter the Armed Forces ?

Mr. Wechkin. The 18th of June 1954.

Mr. Owens. What branch of the service are you in ?

Mr. Wechkin. I am in the Army.

Mr. Owens. In the recent past, you were contacted by a repre- sentative of this committee and asked about your experiences with summer camps in the State of New York.

Mr. Wechkin. That is right, sir.

1 Released by the committee.

1327

1328 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

Mr. Owens. At that time Mr. Collins, who contacted you, asked you several questions about these summer camps, which we will re- view here again this morning. State what your formal education has been, please.

Mr. Wechkin. I was graduated from Brooklyn College in June of 1954.

Mr. Owens. Mr. Wechkin, have you ever attended any summer camps in the State of New York ?

Mr. Wechkin. I have.

Mr. Owens. Would you give the committee the names and dates of the camps so attended by you ?

Mr. Wechkin. I was a camper. I attended Camp Kinderland in 1947 and 1948, the summers of 1947 and 1948.

Mr. Owens. T\niere was Camp Kinderland located ?

Mr. Wechkin. Hopewell Junction, N. Y.

Mr. Owens. How old were you, Mr. Wechkin, at the time you at- tended there?

Mr. Wechkin. I was 12 and 13 years old at the time.

Mr. Owens. Could you tell the committee how your family learned of the existence of Camp Kinderland, if you can recall ?

Mr. Wechkin. My mother died, I believe, in May or June of 1947, and at that time it was difficult to place me in any summer camp, most of the places having been closed. Camp Kinderland was recommended to my father and they would get me accepted there for the summer of 1947.

Mr. Owens. Did you remain the entire summer at Camp Kinder- land in 1947 and 1948?

Mr. Wechkin. I remained there the entire summer of 1948. I missed the first 2 weeks of camp in 1947.

Mr. Owens. So is it correct to state that for the summer of 1947 you were at Camp Kinderland for a period of 7 weeks ?

Mr. Wechkin. Approximately 7 weeks.

Mr. Owens. How long were you at the camp in 1948 ?

Mr. Wechkin. Approximately 8 or 9 weeks.

Mr. Owens. This is off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Owens. Wlien you first arrived at Camp Kinderland in 1947 what, exactly, took place with respect to your getting established at the camp ?

Mr. Wechkin. The camp was divided into five groups, depending upon the age of the camper. And, being 12 years old, I just made the senior group. I was assigned to a bunk in the senior group.

Mr. Owens, Wlien you first arrived at camp, were you immediately met by a counselor who became in charge of you or your group and assigned you to your bunk ?

Mr. Wechkin. I don't remember that, sir.

Mr. Owens. Do you recollect who was in charge of Camp Kinder- land in 1947?

Mr. Wechkin. I believe it was a Mr. Korn.

Mr. Owens. Do you recall his exact title ?

Mr. Wechkin. I believe that he was called the director of Camp Kinderland.

Mr. Oavens. Had you ever seen or met Mr. Korn before that time?

Mr. Wechkin. I don't believe so.

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1329

Mr. Owens, Have you seen him or met him since your two sum- mers at Camp Kinderland?

Mr, Wechkin, I once saw him in a cafeteria on 14th Street. That is about all.

Mr, Owens. After your arrival at camp, were you assigned a group leader or section counselor or something of that sort ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes; I was assigned both a counselor and a group leader.

Mr. Owens. Wlio was your group leader ?

Mr. Wechkin. Mr. Tobatchnikoff.

Mr. Owens, T-o-b-a-t-c-h-n-i-k-o-f-f ?

Mr, Wechkin. Approximately,

Mr. Owens. He was your group leader, is that correct ?

Mr. Wechkin. That is right.

Mr. Owens. Did you say you were also assigned a counselor?

Mr. Wechkin. His name was Chaim, C-h-a-i-m Berman, B-e-r- m-a-n.

Mr. Owens. Did you ever hear Mr, Berman referred to as Irving Berman ?

Mr. Wechkin. I don't believe so.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Owens. Do you remember what other occupations, if any, Mr. Tobatchnikoff had?

Mr. Wechkin. I don't.

Mr. Owens. Do you remember what other occupations, if any, Mr. Berman had ?

Mr. Wechkin. I was told several years later, approximately 1951 or 1952, that Mr. Berman was instructor in history at City College of New York.

Mr. Owens. Do you know whether or not he is still an instructor at City College?

Mr. Wechkin. I don't know. I imagine he is, though.

Just one more thing : I also believe that he was an instructor at the Jewish People's Fraternal Order, JPFO, Mittelschule, in the Bronx, N. Y.

Mr. Owens. In your opinion, Mr. Wechkin, was there any con- nection between Kinderland and the Jewish People's Fraternal Order's schools in New York City ?

Mr. Wechkin. I was given to understand that Kinderland was a summer extension of JPFO schools in New York and Philadelphia.

Mr. Owens, Keturning to your first summer at Camp Kinderland, other than the recreational facilities which we understand are avail- able at these camps — and we will go into these things individually later on — what type of activity were you required to participate in as a camper ?

Mr. Wechkin. There were classes in Jewish language and culture at Camp Kinderland, I believe, almost weekly or semiweekly.

Mr. Owens. What other activities?

Mr. Wechkin. Well, it all depends on what you consider the normal run of activities then. For instance, we would do a lot of singing. But we didn't do the kind of singing you get at most other camps.

Mr, Owens, Were you children — and that is what you were at that time — required to attend lectures or forums or group discussions, or anything of that kind ?

1330 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

Mr. Wechkin. I don't remember.

Mr. Owens. When Mr. Collins talked to you in June, you advised him that during your stay at Kinderland you recollected that you constantly heard a knocking of the capitalist system of the United States ; is that correct ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. 0^vENS. Just how would this line, so to speak, come about ?

Mr. Wechkin. It was more or less an informal, person-to-person thing from a counselor to a camper or from a counselor to a group of campers. It wasn't anything organized. It was, as I say, in- formal ; spontaneous almost.

Mr. Owens. Do you recollect whom you heard such statements from ?

Mr. Wechkin. I remember some statements from my counselor, Chaim Berman, to that effect, although I don't recollect any individual statements.

Mr. Owens Was this a continuous thing or sporadic ?

Mr. Wechkin. It was spontaneous as the occasion demanded.

Mr. Owens. Could you elaborate a little more on what that line

was ?

Mr. Wechkin. If anybody had a question about any aspect ot politics, economics and/or any of the social questions, and if we brought it to a counselor, he would more or less give it the Communist twist, or what I now understand to be the Communist twist.

Mr. Owens. At the time, however, you could not recognize it as the Communist Party line?

Mr. Wechkin. No; although I knew at that time that there was an element of communism about Camp Kinderland.

Mr. Owens. How did you know that?

Mr. Wechkin. It is rather hard to say, but it more or less permeated the atmosphere there.

Mr. Owens. I have a notation here of a statement "Economic con- flict of the classes."

Was that being constantly spoken of or debated ?

Mr. Wechkin. It wasn't spoken of in quite those terms. After all, we were 12 and 13 and 14 years old. I don't remember coming across it so much in 1947 as in 1948, when my counselor that year was quite specific, emphatic, and frequent on the subject.

Mr. Owens. Do you recollect any of the pageants or plays that were presented your first summer at the camp ?

Mr. Wechkin. It is rather hard to distinguish what took place in the first summer and second summer.

Mr. Owens. I think perhaps for recollection purposes that these questions from now on, will pertain to either 1947 or 1948. If any of these circumstances took place at any time during your attendance there, so state.

So that we will have the record clear as to who your leaders were during the 2 years, in 1948 did you have the same group leader and counselor ?

Mr. Wechkin. No ; I didn't.

Mr. Owens. Wlio was your group leader in 1948 ?

Mr. Wechkin. I don't remember.

Mr. Owens. Off the record. (Discussion off the record.)

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1331

Mr. Owens. Back on the record.

Do you recall who your counselor was in 1948 ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes. My counselor was Herbert Gutman, G-u-t-m-a-n.

Mr. OwExs. Do you recall any of the individuals who served as group leaders in 1948 ?

Mr. Wechkin. There was a Sara, S-a-r-a, Davidovitch. I believe that is D-a-v-i-d-o-v-i-t-c-h.

Mr. Owens. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Owens. Do you recall any other group leaders?

Mr. Wechkin. There was one gentleman by the name of Loeb. I am not familiar with the exact spelling of it.

Mr. Owens. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Owens. Could you tell the committee, to the best of your recol- lection, all the names of the individuals who were connected with Camp Kinderland during your experience with the camp ?

Mr. Wechkin. Well, there was a Sidney Weinstein.

Mr. Owens. W-e-i-n-s-t-e-i-n?

Mr. Wechkin. Right ; who was either director or a group leader in 1948, and, I believe, a director in succeeding years.

Mr. Owens. Is that all j^^ou can recollect ?

Mr. Wechkin. No; there are some more. There was Edith Segal, S-e-g-a-1, who was sort of activities director there, who was responsible for most of the pageants we had at Camp Kinderland.

Mr. Collins. Are there any more ?

Mr. Wechkin. None that I can recall offhand right now.

Mr. Owens. If you recollect any, feel free to state that you recol- lect them.

The questions I shall direct will pertain to both years that you were at the camp so that if you had any experiences along the lines I shall ask you, just so state that during your 2 summers there such-and-such took place.

Now, with respect to plays and pageants that were presented, were the children participants in the pageants or plays ?

Mr. Wechkin. Fes ; they were.

Mr. Owens. Do you recollect specifically any of the plays that you may have participated in or observed ?

Mr. Wechkin. There was one sports pageant in 1948 that was less political or had less political coloring than most other pageants that I don't remember. I don't remember any other pageants specifically. But I remember that there were pageants, and in those pageants and plays a number of concepts were expressed, namely, American-Soviet friendship, fight against segregation in the south, and I guess it was part and parcel of the Communist Party line.

Mr. Owens, Did most of the pageants seem to have political over- tones stressing friendship to the Soviet Union ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. Was that fairly obvious in the great majority of them?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. I believe you have already stated the individual who was in charge of the pageant work.

1332 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

Mr. Wechkin. It was a joint effort between Edith Segal, who spe- cialized in dancing, and Sara Davidovitch, who was also responsible for these endeavors.

Mr. Owens. Off the record a minute.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Owens. In addition to the pageants or plays in which the campers participated themselves, were there performances put on by imported actors and performers ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes ; there were.

Mr. Owens. Do you recall any of those individuals ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes ; I do.

Mr. Owens. Would you tell the committee the names of the ones you recall ?

Mr. Wechkin. I remember Pete Seeger, and another folk singer by the name of Bennie Sanders.

Mr. Owens. How were these entertainers presented to the campers, if you recall ?

Mr. Wechkin. I believe there were concerts on Sunday night. And these people entertained at these concerts. These concerts were a joint effort of Camp Lakeland, which was contiguous to Camp Kinderland.

Mr. Owens. Do you know personally how the directors of the camp secured the services of these performers ?

Mr. Wechkin. No ; I don't.

Mr. Owens. During your two summers at Kinderland, Mr. Wech- kin, do you recall any open and avowed discussion of Communist Party purposes, propaganda or aims ?

Mr. Wechkin. I don't recall any group level. As I said before, it was in the course of social intercourse between the counselors and campers, I remember specifically, where the Communist Party aims were put forth.

Mr. Owens. Would it be on an individual basis?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. Were they designated in these individual contacts as Communist Party program or platform ?

Mr. Wechkin. I don't think so. But certainly they didn't deny the name of being Communist.

Mr. Owens. Do you mean b;^ that they used the name Communist?

Mr. Wechkin. Well, they just didn't argue when you called it Communist.

Mr. Owens. In your reply or in your interrogation, if you chose the word "Communist," there would be no denial ?

Mr. Wechkin. That is right.

Mr. Owens. Did you personally have any such conversations?

Mr. Wechkin. I did.

Mr. Owens. Do you recall with whom ?

Mr. Wechkin. My counselor in 1948, Herbert Gutman.

Mr. Owens. And prior to meeting him in 1948 ?

Mr. Wechkin. No ; I didn't.

Excuse me, I remember him as being a counselor in 1947.

Mr. Owens. Prior to that, you had never met him ?

Mr. Wechkin. No.

Mr. Oavens. Could you tell us what you know about the background of Herbert Gutman ?

INVESTIGATION OF COMMTJNIST ACTIVITIES 1333

Mr. Wechkin. Herbert Gutman graduated Queens College in New York approximately 1947 or 19-48. He played on the varsity basket- ball team there. He attended the Columbia School of Journalism, Columbia Graduate School of Journalism, in 1949 or 1950. He "was a student at the Institute of Marxist Studies, Jefferson School of Social Science, in 1950.

Then I had a personal contact with Herbert Gutman.

Mr. Owens. We shall cover that later.

What occupation did he pursue, if you know, during the off season of the years 1947 and 1948 ?

Mr. Wechkin". He was a student at that time.

Mr. OwExs. Turning now to these contacts you may have had with Mr. Gutman at Kinderland, do you recall specifically any of the in- stances where he discussed with you what was apparent to you to be Communist Party line?

Mr. Wechkin. Well, he urged my membership in the Youth for Wallace movement.

Mr. Owens. Did that materialize into your joining the Young Pro- gressives of America ?

Mr. Wechkin. It did.

Mr. Owens. You are saying, then, that your joining the Young Progressives of America was brought about by your contact with Mr. Gutman at Camp Kinderland ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes. And I would like to make a statement right now.

When I came to Camp Kinderland in 1947, I was no Communist.

I think that primarily through the influence of Camp Kinderland and, more specifically, the influence of my counselor, Herbert Gutman, I did eventually become a Communist in succeeding years.

Mr. Owens. And the first step in that direction was the joining of the Young Progressives of America ?

Mr. Wechkin. The first step was the Youth for Wallace Club, which eventually became the Young Progressives of America.

Mr. Owens. Would you tell the committee the circumstances or the actual details of your joining the Youth for Wallace movement ?

Mr. Wechkin. My counselor, Herbert Gutman, was a delegate or an observer — I forget which — to the Philadelphia convention of the Progressive Party in 1948. And when he came back, he urged mem- bership of the campers in his bunk in the Youth for Wallace Club.

Mr. Owens. Was there an actual signing or registration in the group ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes ; there was.

Mr. Owens. Where did that take place ?

Mr. Wechkin. As a matter of fact, it took place in the bunk itself.

Mr. Owens. In the quarters at Camp Kinderland ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. Did Gutman sign you and others into the movement ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes, he did.

Mr. Owens. You would have been 14 at the time, or approaching 14 ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes, that is right.

Mr. Owens. Would you tell the committee the next step with respect to your Communist affiliations, with respect to your own participation ?

Mr. Wechkin. In May of 1949 I joined the Young Progressives of America.

1334 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

Mr. Owens. At whose request ?

Mr. Wechkin. Well, it was more or less on my own impetus at that time. I believe in November or December of 1949 I joined the Labor Youth League.

Mr. Owens. Let's separate the two.

Had you joined the Young Progressives of America, which we understand later became the Labor Youth League

Mr. Wechkin. No, that is not correct at all.

Both organizations existed as separate groups.

Mr. Owens. Existing concurrently ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. In 1949?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes, and succeeding years ; I believe as late as 1954 or so. I don't know what happened to them later than that.

Mr. Owens. Did you join the Young Progressives of America before you joined the Labor Youth League?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes, I did.

Mr. Owens. "V\^ien and where did you join the Young Progres- sives of America ?

Mr, Wechkin. I joined the Young Progressives of America in May of 1949 at the ALP headquarters, 5222 Church Avenue, Brooklyn, N. Y.

Mr. Owens. Is that the American Labor Party headquarters?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owen. How old were you at the time ?

Mr. Wechkin, I was 141/2, 1 believe,

Mr, Owen, When did you join the Labor Youth League ?

Mr. Wechkin. In either November or December of 1949.

Mr. Owens. Where?

Mr. Wechkin. It was in a cellar on Eastern Parkway in Brook- lyn, I can't remember the exact address,

Mr. Owens. How were you directed to this address?

Mr. Wechkin. There were a number of members of YPA who were also members of the Labor Youth League, and at their insistence or, I won't say insistence, rather, at their advice or prodding, I at- tended a Labor Youth League meeting and I joined at that time.

Mr. Owens. Were you in touch with Herb Gutman during this period in 1949 ?

Mr, Wechkin. I don't know if it was 1949 or the early part of 1950, around January or February of 1950. At that time I wanted to at- tend courses at the Jefferson School of Social Science. My parents were hesitant about allowing me to attend.

I called Herbert Gutman on the telephone and I had him speak to my parents. And apparently what he told them was enough to convince them that my attending the Jefferson School of Social Science wouldn't be harmfvd, in fact, it would be quite beneficial.

Mr. Owens. He satisfied your parents' uneasiness with respect to your attendance at the Jefferson School?

Mr. Wechkin. That is right,

Mr, O^VENS, Before we get to attendance at the Jefferson School, 1 want to ask j^ou some more questions about 1948 and 1949,

Can you recollect, Mr. Wechkin, any other instance during your attendance at Kinderland which clearly portrayed to the campers and the people at the camp a Communist Party line or ideology ?

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1335

Mr. Wechkin. Yes, I can.

The songs which we were taught and which we sang had a decided Communist character to them. As examples of these songs, we sang Bandiera Rosa and the Soviet national anthem.

Mr. Owens. Bandiera Eosa is an Italian Communist song, isn't it?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. Translated, is that Red Flag?

Mr. "Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. Do you recollect any of the lyrics of these songs ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes. The concluding line of the chorus is : "Long live communism and liberty."

Mr. Owens. x\1so, as campers, did you sing the Soviet national anthem ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. Do you recall any other songs ?

Mr. Wechkin. We sang a number of Spanish civil war songs.

Would you like some of the titles of those ?

Mr. Owens. If you recall.

Mr. Wechkin. There was Vive la Quince Brigada, which means Long live the 15th brigade, which was the Abraham Lincoln Brigade.

Mr. Owens. How about the famous Red Army song, Meadowland ?

Mr. Wechkin. We also sang that one.

Mr. Owens. How was the singing of these songs usually brought about?

Mr. Wechkin. They were sung in more or less informal groups of campers, informal large groups of campers. And the words were taught to us either by the counselors or campers who knew them. In addition, the words appeared in a pamphlet called Sing which was distributed among the campers and contained all of the Commu- nist songs that I mentioned. '-'■'>

Mr. Owens. Prior to your arrival at this camp, had you ever heard any of these songs ?

Mr. Wechkin. I believe I had heard Meadowland before, but that is about all.

Mr. Owens. The rest of them were completely strange and new to you?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. "Wliat explanation, if any, did the counselors and di- rectors give for the singing of these songs ?

Mr. Wechkin. They gave no explanation at all. It was more or less implied they were good songs to sing. And, as a matter of fact, they are melodious.

Mr. Owens. This is off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Owens. Mr. Wechkin, can you recollect any other instances or situations where the counselors or directors were somewhat open with regard to Communist Party propaganda or performance?

Mr. Wechkin. Oh, yes. At the advice of my counselor in 1948, once more Herbert Gutman, I bought and read The Great Conspiracy by Cameron and Kahn.

Mr. Owens. Had you ever heard of the book before ?

Mr. Wechkin. No.

Mr. Owens. How did Gutman encourage you to read it?

1336 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

Mr. Wechkin. I was inquisitive about the nature of the Soviet Union and Soviet development and he advised me to read that in order to get insight into that subject.

Mr. Owens. As campers, how did you address your couselors and directors ?

Mr. Wechkin. With group leaders and the director the address was Chaver, which is Hebrew for comrade.

Mr. Owens. Did you call Gutman by that title?

Mr. Wechkin. No ; I didn't. We called Korn by that title, though.

Mr. Owens. Was Korn the camp director in 1948 also?

Mr. Wechkin. I don't remember. It is entirely possible that Sidney Weinstein, to my recollection, was camp director in that year.

Mr. Owens. You reported, when Mr. Collins talked with you last month, that between the physical locations of Camp Lakeland and Kinderland there is a spot of ground containing a plaque.

Mr, Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. Wliat could you tell the committee about the plaque that is erected there ?

Mr. Wechkin. It was in a triangle which was between Kinderland and Lakeland in front of the dining hall at the base of a flagpole containing the American flag.

Mr. Owens. Were you campers ever told in detail what it repre- sented ?

Mr. Wechkin. We were.

Mr. Owens. Were you told in a lecture ?

Mr. Wechkin. It was a formal lecture, I believe.

Mr. Owens. Do you recall who lectured you on this plaque ?

Mr. Wechkin. I don't remember who it was. I remember it being a rather high official of Camp Kinderland, either Sidney Weinstein or Korn, or someone of equivalent positicii.

Mr. Owens. Returning to your statement of a few moments ago that you expressed a desire to attend the Jefferson School in New York City and that Gutman dispelled any uneasiness your family may have had with regard to that, how did you make your first con- tact with the Jefferson School ?

Mr. Wechkin. Through the Labor Youth League. At that time I believe the Labor Youth League was offering reduced fees for its members attending the Jefferson School of Social Science.

Mr. Owens. Wliere did the Labor Youth League group that you blonged to, used to meet ?

Mr. Wechkin. It had a club on Eastern Parkway near Hopkinson Avenue in Brooklyn.

Mr. Owens. Did your LYL group have a name or designation?

Mr. Wechkin. I think it was called the Brownsville East New York LYL.

Mr. Owens. Approximately how many young people belonged to your branch?

Mr. Wechkin. It was rather hard to say. It was a rather amor- phous group. People were always coming and going. You didn't know who the actual members were. But in November or December 3'ou would get something like 25 or 80, 35 people down to a meeting of the club.

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1337

Mr. Owens. As you have stated before to the staff, you joined the LYL in November of 1949 and left in September the following year, 1950 ; is that correct ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. Who were the leaders of your branch when you joined in 1949?

Mr. Wechkin. I don't remember their names.

Mr. Owens. Do you recollect who chaired your meetings' at any time?

Mr. Wechkin. No, I don't. At the time, most of my activities in the Communist movement were carried on in YPA rather than LYL. As a result, I wasn't familiar with the workings of the people in the — my local LYL people.

Mr. Owens. Did you remain a member of the YPA concurrently with your membersliip in LYL ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes, I did.

Mr. Owens. You say that you were much more active in YPA than you were in LYL ?

Mr. Wechkin. That is right.

Mr. Owens. In your meetings of the YPA, then, were open Com- munist Party policies and propaganda discussed?

Mr. Wechkin. The YPA is a Communist front, and the Communist line was put forth, but not as the Communist line per se.

Mr. Owens. It was thinly veiled, let us say ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes, that is about the size of it.

Mr. Owens. Were the members of your YPA gi'oup and LYL group about the same age. as you or somewhat older?

Mr. Wechkin. They were perhaps one or 2 or 3 years older than I was.

Mr. Owens. "\Y1io were the leaders of j^our YPA group, if you recollect ?

Mr. Wechkin. I remember people, but I don't remember their names offhand.

Mr. Owens. "Wlien you joined the YPA, were you required to reg- ister as a member of the YPA ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes. I believe that the initial initiation fee was a half dollar at the time.

Mr. Owens. Did you pay dues to the YPA ?

Mr. Wechkin. The dues were collected scatteredly and spottily, like a great many organizations.

Mr. Owens. Was Gutman active in either your group of the YPA or the LYL?

Mr. Wechkin. No, he wasn't, though I believe he was on a high or governing body of the YPA. I am not too sure about that.

Mr. Owens. Could you tell the committee some of the programs that the YPA or LYL attempted to put forward through your youth groups ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes. In 1949, the election campaign, both the YPA and the LYL campaigned vigorously for tlie election of Marcantonio for mayor of the city of New York. In addition, there were protests against the McCarran Act, protests against discrimination against Negroes, protest against Feinberg law, which was pending in the New York State Legislature.

66838 — 55 — pt. 5 2

1338 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

Mr. Owens. Were your groups of the YPA or LYL ever ad- dressed by individuals who were brought in as guest lecturers or guest speakers ?

Mr. Wechkin. We had some people from higher positions in the yPA come down as speakers. I remember Hal Collins once coming down and speaking to us.

Mr. Owens. Can you remember the names of any other speakers?

Mr. Wechkin. There was a Dave McCanns who once spoke to us. He was a Negro fellow.

Mr. Owens. How do you spell his name?

Mr. Wechkin. M-c-C-a-n-n-s.

Mr. Owens. Were these speakers introduced to you as officers of the YPA?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes, they were.

Excuse me, I don't know if Hal Collins was. He was an instructor at the Jefferson School at that time, I believe.

Mr. Owens. Mr. Wechkin, you have stated that you left the LYL in September of 1950. Wlien did you sever your relationship with the Young Progressives of America ?

Mr. Wechkin. At the same time.

Mr. Owens. Returning to your statement regarding Jefferson School in New York City, after your parents had condescended to let you attend this school, what was your next step ?

Mr. Wechkin. I attended the school.

Mr. Owens. You went down and registered for classes ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. Did you go alone?

Mr. Wechkin. No.

Mr. Oavens. Who went with you ?

Mr. Wechkin. A fellow YPA and LYL man by the name of Alvin Dorfman, D-o-r-f-m-a-n.

Mr. Owens. Did he register at the same time you did ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes ; he did.

Mr. Owens. Exactly when did you register for classes at the Jeffer- son School of Social Science?

Mr. Wechkin. I believe in either late January or early February of 1950.

Mr. Oavens. How long did you attend ?

Mr. Wechkin. The curriculum was divided up into 8- or 10-week courses, and I attended one course through, I believe, April, and I attended another course through the latter part of May or early part of June, I forget which.

Mr. Owens. So you attended classes from January 1950 approx- imately through June 1950?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. The classes represented the two semesters, so to speak?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. The semesters being 8 or 10 weeks long?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. Do you recollect the subject that von took at Jefferson School ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes. The first semester I took a course called science and society, or science of society. I forget what the exact title was.

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1339

The second semester I took a course called political economy I.

Mr. Owens. Who were your instructors in your first course, if you recall ?

Mr. Wechkin. My instructor in the science of society course was Elizabeth Lawson, although she wasn't there a great deal of the time. There were other people who filled in for her. Among them were Doxy Wilkerson, Jack Foner

Mr. Owens. F-o-n-e-r ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes. That is about all I remember.

Mr. Owens. I imagine that there was required reading for both these courses, was there not ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. With respect to the course, science of society, do you recollect the parallel reading material for this course ?

Mr. Wechkin. Off the record now.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Owens. During your interview with Mr. Ray Collins of the committee, you outlined to him the reading which was required for the course we are discussing at this time.

Were you required to read and study the Communist Manifesto ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. Dialectical and Historical Materialism by Lenin ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes. In both of those there were just selected pas- sages which we were required to read.

Mr. Owens. Marxism versus Liberalism by Stalin?

Mr. Wechkin. I don't remember that.

Mr. Owens. The State by Stalin ?

Mr. Wechkin. I don't remember that.

Mr. Owens. The Twilight of World Capitalism by Foster?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. Theory and Practice of the Communist Party by Davis?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. The Path of Negro Liberation?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. Constitution of the U. S. S. R. ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. You stated that you were required to read passages from the Communist Manifesto.

Mr. Wechkin, Excuse me. Now that I think of it, we were required to read the entire Communist Manifesto. It was only some of the selections of the other work.

Mr. Owens. Do you mean you were required to read only certain passages from Dialectical and Historical Materialism by Lenin?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. Oft' the record. (Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Owens. Were you required to read the entire work or just passages of the book. The Twilight of World Capitalism?

Mr. Wechkin. The entire book, I believe.

Mr. Owens. Were you required to read certain passages or the entire publication. Theory and Practice of the Communist Party?

Mr. Wechkin. The entire work.

,1340 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

Mr. Owens. Were you required to read the entire work of the Path of Negro Liberation?

Mr. Wechkin. I don't remember.

Mr. Owens. Were you required to read the entire Constitution of theU. S. S. K.?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. With regard to your other course, political economy I, did you have reqiiired reading for that course?

Mr. Wechkin. We did.

Mr. Owens. Do you recollect any of that?

Mr. Wechkin. There was a book by an English economist, whose name I don't remember, which was the basic text for the course.

Mr. O^vens. You don't remember the author ?

Mr. Wechkin. No.

Mr. Owens. Was it Laski?

Mr. Wechkin. No.

Mr. Owens. Who was the instructor in political economy I?

Mr. Wechkin. Mr. Victor Perlo.

Mr. Owens. During your attendance at Jefferson School in 1950, did you have occasion to see Herb Gutman ?

Mr. Wechkin. I did.

Mr. Owens. What were the occasions that you would meet Mr. Gutman ?

Mr. Wechkin. I had arranged to meet him, having several doubts and reservations about the Communist Party of the United States. I didn't believe that they were militant enough and went to discuss the subject with Herbert Gutman.

Mr. O^vENS. How did you contact him?

Mr. Wechkin. I called him on the telephone. And since he was also attending Jefferson School at the time I was, we arranged to meet one day before classes.

Mr. Owens. And you discussed with him the lack of militancy on the part of the United States Communist Party in regard to interna- tional communism; is that correct?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. "Wliy did you pick Herbert Gutman to discuss this subject with?

Mr. Wechkin. Well, he was probably — I don't know. I just felt kindly toward him. I felt fond of the guy, I suppose.

Mr. Oa\t:ns. Did you discuss this with him because you had reason to believe he was a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. You did believe that?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. How did you come by such belief ?

Mr. Wechkin. It was more or less evident from his entire attitude on a number of questions. If he was not a party member, he was at least a Communist.

At this meeting which was, I believe, in March or April of 1950, he admitted to being a Communist Party member.

Mr. Owens. Was that the meeting when you sought him out to discuss the problem you just mentioned?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1341

Mr. Owens. And Gutman admitted to you he was a Communist?

Mr. Wechkin". A Communist Party member.

Mr. Owens. Wliat effect, if any, did it have on your own thinking?

Mr. Wechkin. It had no effect at all. I more or less assumed he was a party member.

Mr. Owens. It came as no great shock?

Mr. Wechkin. No, not at all.

Mr. Owens. Did Gutman ever talk to you about joining the Com- munist Party ?

Mr. Wechkin. I don't think so.

Mr. Owens. Did Gutman express continuing interest in your mem- bership in LYL and YPA ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. Now, Mr. Wechkin, when you enrolled at Jefferson School in January of 1950, you were approaching your 16th birthday, or would have been 16 on your next birthday; is that correct?

Mr. Wechkin. I just turned 15, I think. My birthday was in November and this took place in January.

Mr. Owens. Was there any question about your attending the Jef- ferson School by virtue of your tender years, so to speak ?

Mr. Wechkin. No ; I don't think so. As a matter of fact, they had a number of courses for young children at the Jefferson School at that time.

Mr. Owens. In other words, your youth never entered into the fact one way or the other with respect to attending Jefferson School ?

Mr. Wechkin. No.

Mr. Owens. Actually, you were still attending high school in Brook- lyn ; is that correct ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Mr. Owens. Did you take your Jefferson courses at night?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes. Well, no. The first course that I took was held on Saturday, I believe. The second course in political economy was taken at night.

Mr. Owens. Mr. Wechkin, prior to your attendance at Camp Kinderland in 1947 and 1948, had you ever been exposed to the Com- munist influence that you came to experience in the next 2 or 3 years ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes ; I was.

I attended JPFO schools in Brooklyn since the age of about 7 or so.

Mr. Owens. I asked you if you had been exposed to a Communist influence. Are you saying that in the JPFO (Jewish Peoples Fra- ternal Order) school in Brooklyn there was an apparent show of Communist line or propaganda.

Mr. Wechkin. Yes ; I am.

Mr. Owens. "Wlien did you attend the JPFO school in Brooklyn ?

Mr. Wechkin. I suppose I started when I was around 7 or 8 years old, which would make it in 1942 or 1943.

Excuse me. It just occurred to me. I believe I attended Camp Kinderland in 1941 for a couple of weeks.

Mr. Owens. T\nien you were 6 or 7 years old ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

Yes, that is right ; I did. It just occurred to me, as a matter of fact. I remember that.

Mr. Owens. In your own words, Mr. Wechkin, can you tell the committee what experiences in your life were most responsible for

1342 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

you joining the YPA, the LYL, and attending classes at the Jefferson School of Social Science ?

Mr. Wechkin. I suppose it is more or less a number of several ele- ments. Perhaps most important was this adolescent revolt, and the influence of Camp Kinderland and my counselor, Herbert Gutman.

Mr. Owens. Had you ever been asked to join the Communist Party ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes ; I was.

Mr. Owens. Would you tell the committee the circumstances sur- rounding that request ?

Mr. Wechkin. I am not too clear on it. It seemed that at one time I expressed a desire to join the Communist Party, and I was sup- posed to see a member of the Communist Party at the Communist Party lieadquarters on Pitkin Avenue near Bruckway Avenue in Brooklyn.

And, somehow, we got our signals crossed, and I was there and he wasn't. He was there the following night. As a result, I never joined the party.

Mr. Owens. How was the appointment made?

Mr. Wechkin. Through a member of the YPA and LYL, whom I believe was a Communist Party member.

Mr. Owens. A^liom you believe was a party member but have no positive knowledge ?

Mr. Wechkin. That is right.

Mr. OwTENS. Who was the person you were to meet at Communist Party headquarters in Brooklyn?

Mr. Wechkin. I forget his name.

I just remembered the name of the leader of the Bronx YPA.

Mr. Owens. Who was that ?

Mr. Wechkin. His name is Myer Wolovitz. He was an acknowl- edged Communist Party member, W-o-l-o-v-i-t-z.

Mr. Owens. Was it ever discussed, either at caucuses or personal conversations or open meetings of the YPA or LYL that the Commu- nist Party was tlie party of the working class and had the best inter- ests of the most people at heart ?

Mr. Wechkin. It was openly stated at LYL metings, although I don't believe we ever reached that point in YPA.

Mr. Oavens. Do you recall such open statements in meetings of the LYL?

Mr. Wechkin. Oh, yes.

Mr. Owens. In answer to my question a few minutes ago, were you ever asked to join the Communist Party, you said, "Yes."

Mr. Wechkin. Well, I will have to change that, then. I wasn't really asked. It was more or less by mutual consent.

Mr. Owens. Did you solicit an appointment ?

Mr. Wechkin. I just expressed a desire and, as a result of that expression, a meeting was arranged.

Mr. Owens. Who advised you to meet, if you recall ?

Mr. Wechkin. A young man who was a member of the YPA and LYL. His name was Norman Masur, Ma-s-u-r, something like that. I am not too sure.

Mr. Owens. Is he the one that gave you the instructions to meet this individual at Communist Party headquarters in Brooklyn? Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

rNTV^ESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1343

Mr. Oavens. The meeting never took place; is that correct?

Mr. Wechkin. No.

Mr. Oavens. Have you at any other time been asked or solicited for membership in the Communist Party ?

Mr. Wechkin. No.

Mr. Owens. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Owens. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. Wechkin. No ; I have not.

Mr. Owens. Returning now for a minute to Mr. Gutman, subse- quent to the years 1947 and 1948, do you have any knowledge as to whether or not Mr. Gutman was active in other summer camps in New York State?

Mr. Wechkin. No.

Mr. Oavens. Have you seen Mr. Gutman since 1950 ?

Mr. Wechkin. No.

Mr. Oavens. Do you have anv knowledge of jSIr. Gutman's activities since 1950 ?

Mr. Wechkin. I can only draw several suppositions on the basis of my knowledge of his political inclination, but that is neither here nor there.

Mr. Owens. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Owens. You have no positive knowledge ; is that correct ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. Owens. To sum up now, Mr. Wechkin, during your attendance at Camp Kinderland, did you ever hear discussions of other camps of the same character as Camp Kinderland ?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes. Camp Wo-chi-ca, which I believe stands for workers children's camps. A number of people who were both campers and counselors at Kinderland were campers and counselors at Camp Wo-chi-ca.

Mr. Collins. Camp Wo-chi-ca is out of business.

Mr. Wechkin. Yes ; I have heard about it.

Mr. Owens. While in the YPA and LYL, did the subject of sum- mer camps ever come up for discussion ?

Mr. Wechkin. I met a number of people who had been campers at Camp Kinderland at that time, who were at that time members of YPA and/or LYL, and we discussed old times.

Mr. Owens. Would you say, Mr. Wechkin, that daring your at- tendance at Kinderland the advancement of Communist propaganda and theory was not too thinly veiled in some of the camp activities?

Mr. Wechkin. Well, "not too thinly veiled" is a rather ambiguous term. I just say that at times it was more than apparent.

Mr. Oavens. I realize this is an opinion question, but the committee, as you know, is seeking information on this subject, and I would like A'ery much to have your opinion on it.

We have learned in recent weeks and months that in the current ses- sions of the summer camps, their programs, pageants, and activities seem to be less apparent witli respect to Communist ideology.

Would you have any opinion as to why this change for public consumption ?

1344 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

I might add one more point : The same type of individual seems to be directing and counseling the camps, but the activities seem to be less obvious with respect to Communist ideology.

Do I make myself clear?

Mr. Wechkin. Yes.

I can only draw my suppositions on this. From what I read in the newspapers, the Communist Party is going underground and Com- munist fronts are becoming harder and harder to detect.

In keeping with this historical swing, Camp Kinderland is in step.

Mr. Owens. You haven't been to any of these camps since 1948 ; is that correct ?

Mr. Wechkin. No.

In the summer of 1950 I paid a visit to Camp Kinderland for just Iday.

Mr. O^vENS. Did you see any old faces ?

Mr. Wechkin. No. I was rather surprised at the extent to which most of the people I knew at Camp Kinderland were no longer there.

Mr. Owens. Does anything remain in your mind about what activi- ties you participated in for that 1 day in 1950 ?

Mr. Wechkin. No.

Mr. Owens. Do you know anyone in the last year or two or this year or last year who has attended these camps ?

Mr. Wechkin. No.

Mr. Owens. I think that is all I have at this time, Mr. Wechkin, unless Mr. Collins has some questions he would like to ask.

Mr. Collins. I have no questions.

Mr. Owens. Mr. Wechkin, I certainly want to thank you on behalf of the committee for coming down here. We are most appreciative of your attitude.

Mr. Wechkin. I was glad to do it, Mr. Owens.

(Whereupon the witness was excused.)

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES, NEW YORK AREA— PART 5

(Summer Camps)

THURSDAY, JULY 28, 1955

House of Representatives, Subcommittee of the Committee on

Un-American Activities,

Washington^ D. G.

executive session ^

The subcommittee met at 2 p. m., pursuant to call, in room 226, Old House Office Building, Hon. Morgan M. Moulder, chairman of the subcommittee, presiding.

Committee members present : Representatives Morgan M. Moulder and Gordon H. Scherer.

Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; Thomas W. Beale, Sr., chief clerk; Courtney Owens and Raymond Collins, investigators.

Mr. Moulder. It will be noted and recorded that this is a subcom- mittee composed of three members, the Honorable Gordon Scherer of Ohio, the Honorable Clyde Doyle of California, and myself, Morgan M. Moulder of Missouri as chainnan of the subcommittee duly ap- pointed by the Honorable Francis E. Walter, chairman of the full Committee on Un-American Activities.

It is noted that the Honorable Gordon Scherer and myself as sub- committee chairman, Morgan Moulder, are now present, constituting a quorum.

The committee will be in order.

Mr. Tavenner, are you ready to proceed ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.

Mr. Green, will you come forward, please ?

Mr. Moulder. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn ?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Green. I do.

TESTIMONY OF DAVE GREEN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,

RALPH SHAPIRO

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? Mr. Green. Dave Green.

1 Released by the committee.

1345

1346 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

Mr. Tavenner. It is noted you are accompanied by counsel. Will counsel please identify himself for the record ?

Mr. Shapiro. Ilalph Shapiro, 9 East 40th Street, New York 16.

Mr. Tavenner. When and when were you born, Mr. Green?

Mr. Green. New York City in April of 1905.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your present occupation ?

Mr. Green. I am the manager of Camp Lakeland, Inc.

Mr. Tavenner. Wliere is that located ?

Mr. Green. Hopewell Junction, N. Y.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Green, the committee is currently considering the operation of certain camps in the State of New York and the reason for calling you here is to interrogate you with regard particularly to the camp you have just mentioned.

How long have you been the manager of that camp ?

Mr. Green. Pardon me. If I may, I anticipated that was the rea- son I was being called here and I have a statement I would like to present to the committee in regard to the camp.

Mr. Tavenner. Is it responsive to the question or is it a prepared statement concerning some other subject?

Mr. Green. It is a prepared statement in regard to the subject- matter of Camp Lakeland.

Mr. Moulder. May we see the statement ?

(Document handed to the chairman by the witness.)

Mr. Green. I have some more copies here.

Mr. Moulder. It has been the policy and rule of this committee, Mr. Green, that prepared statements will be admitted for filing as part of the proceedings, and it is ordered that the statement now offered by the witness will be duly filed.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Green, how long have you been the manager of Camp Lakeland, Inc. ?

Mr. Green. Since March of 1954.

Mr. TA\Ti:NNER. Have you had any connection with the camp prior to that time ?

Mr. Green. No.

Mr. Tavenner. "V\^io are the present officers of Camp Lakeland, Inc.?

Mr. Green. Sol Vail is the president.

Mr. Tavenner, Will you spell the name, please?

Mr. Green. Sol V-a-i'-l.

Mr. Harry Sandler, S-a-n-d-1-e-r, is the treasurer, and Mr. Jack Goldman, G-o-l-d-m-a-n, is the vice president.

Mr. Tavenner. Is one of those mentioned the secretary to the corporation ?

Mr. Green. One is the treasurer and one is the vice president.

Mr. Tavenner. Who is the secretary?

Mr. Green. I really don't know of any secretary.

Mr. Tavenner. I have before me a photostatic copy of the certifi- cate of incorporation bearing date the 11th day of February 1939, in which the following-named persons, Joseph Galstuck, G-a-1- s-t-u-c-k, Seymore, S-e-y-m-o-r-e Roseberg, and Betty Greenbaum were the incorporators and the stockholders named as directors until the first annual meeting of the stockholders was held.

Are any of those three persons connected with the corporation at this time?

riSr»'ESTIGATIOX OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1347

Mr. Green. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. ScHERER. Do you know them ?

Mr. Green. One name sounds familiar. I don't think I know the •others.

Mr. Tavenner. When did the present officers whose names you gave us take over the management and operation of this corporation ?

Mr. Green. I do not know.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what the issued and outstanding shares of the capital stock of this corporation aggregated ?

Mr. Green. I do not know.

Mr. Scherer. Is it a corporation for profit, Mr. Tavenner ?

Mr. Tavenner. It is a corporation, one purpose of which is to carry on the business of providing board, lodging, entertainment, and other necessities to vacationists, tourists, transients, and so forth.

Mr. Scherer. Do the articles of incorporation indicate that stock has been issued ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. It provides that the amount of capital stock shall be $20,000, which shall consist of 200 shares of par value of $100 each, and that the number of shares held by the 3 incorporators were 1 share each.

Mr. Scherer. Witness, do you know whether this is a corporation for profit or a nonprofit corporation under the laws of New York at this time?

Mr. Green. It is to my best knowledge a stock corporation.

Mr. Scherer. In other words, a corporation for profit?

Mr. Green. That is correct.

Mr. Scherer. Do you own any stock in the corporation ?

Mr. Green. I do not; nor have I sold any to my children, either.

Mr. Tavenner. When proceedings were instituted by the State of New York against the IWO, according to the investigation of the committee, there were certain mortgages on this property which were held by the IWO and which the State of New York took over and later assigned to the Sylvan Lake Holding Corp.

Do you know what the amount of that mortgage was ?

Mr. Green. Tliere were two mortgages involved. One was approxi- mately $G5,000, held by the IWO, and the other was a $15,000 or $16,000 mortgage, held by the IWO Funeral and Cemetery Depart- ment, Inc.

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. That made an indebtedness of approximately $80,000?

Mr. Green. $80,000. Sixty-five and fifteen, to my best knowledge.

Mr. Ta^tnner. $80,000 held by the IWO.

What year was that?

Mr. Green. I am sorry, let's have it correct. Congressman, or counsel.

There were two mortgages. One was held by the IWO, Inc. The other was held by the Funeral and Cemetery Department, IWO, Inc., which is distinct and a separate entity.

Mr. Tavenner. When were those mortgages placed on the prop- erty ? Do you know ?

Mr. Green. I imagine they were about 10 years on the books. I really don't know the exact date. About 10 years, I would say, would be about correct.

1348 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

Mr. Tavenner. Is the property still subject to those two mort- gages ?

Mr. Green. No.

Mr. Tavenner. Were they paid off?

Mr. Green. They were paid off.

Mr. Tavenner. How long ago was it ?

Mr. Green. I think it was, one was paid off in December and the other was paid off in January or February.

Mr. Tavenner. Of what year ?

Mr. Green. December of 1954 the IWO mortgage was paid off and the Funeral and Cemetery Department, Inc., was paid off, I think, in January or February of this year.

Mr. Scherer. To whom did you say these mortgages were assigned ?

Mr. Green. They were assigned to the Sylvan Lake Holding Corp.

Mr. Scherer. Wliat is the Sylvan Lake Holding Corp.?

Mr. Green. That is the corporation that purchased the two mort- gages, and gave a loan to Camp Lakeland for which they have a first mortgage.

Mr. Scherer. You say those mortgages have all been paid off.

Mr. Shapiro. I think he has misstated himself.

Mr. Scherer. Can you explain it?

Mr. Shapiro. He correctly states the mortgage was paid off. They were paid off to the IWO and the IWO Cemetery Department, Inc., by being bought by, as I understand it, Sylvan Lake Holding Corp., which now holds — which consolidated these 2 mortgages into 1 mort- gage and now, as I understand it, holds a consolidated first mortgage in the principal amount, less any payments that have been made, of these 2 mortgages on the property of Camp Lakeland.

That is my understanding of the financial setup.

Mr. Tavenner. In other words, the form of the mortgage has been changed in that the amount of $70,000 is now owing to this holding corporation instead of to the IWO.

Mr. Shapiro. That is correct.

Mr. Tavenner. Has that mortgage been increased ?

Mr. Green. Yes; it has been increased to $90,000.

Mr. Tavenner. Wlien was it increased?

Mr. Green. Also in, I think it was, January or February of this year.

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat was the purpose of increasing the mortgage from $70,000 to $90,000?

Mr. Green. To pay off current obligations and to operate the camp.

Mr. Tavenner. From whom was this additional $20,000 borrowed ?

Mr. Green. From Sylvan Lake Holding Corp. And they were all consolidated into one first mortgage which the Sylvan Lake Holding Corp. now holds on Camp Lakeland, Inc.

Mr. Tavenner. So the mortgage is now $90,000 ?

Mr. Green. That is correct.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a shareholder in the Sylvan Lake Holding Corp.?

Mr. Green. Yes. Let me get it straight now. I am sorry, I may be mistaken.

I am not a shareholder in Sylvan Lake Holding Corp.

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your interest in it ?

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1349

Mr. Gkeen. My only interest is a $300 loan which I made to Sylvan Lake Holding Corp.

Mr. Tavenner. What was the purpose of your making a loan of $300 to the Sylvan Lake Holding Corp. ?

Mr. Green. That was to help raise the $90,000 to buy oif the two mortgages and to increase it to a first mortgage of $90,000.

Mr. Tavenner. So you actually are participating in the $90,000 mortgage to the extent of $300?

Mr. Green. That is correct.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you issued any evidence of the debt?

Mr. Green. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. "Wliat is the nature of that ?

JNIr. Green. I have a certificate which indicates that I have loaned to the Sylvan Lake Holding Corp. $300.

Mr. Tavenner. How was the rest of the $20,000 of cash raised ?

Mr. Green. I assume the same way.

Mr. Tavenner. From whom?

Mr. Green. From individuals.

Mr. Tavenner. Who are the individuals who made the loans ?

Mr. Green. I have no list of them.

Mr. Tavenner. But you know who many of them are?

Mr. Green. I know some of them.

Mr. Tavenner. Who are they?

Mr. Green. Well, I don't know whether that kind of a question is appropriate to ask me. I am not an officer of Sylvan Lake Holding Corp., neither am I an officer of the Camp Lakeland, Inc. And I don't think I can give out information like that without consulting the owners either of Camp Lakeland, and certainly the owners of Sylvan Lake Holding Corp.

Mr. ScHERER. It is not a matter of privilege.

Mr. Moulder. It is not privileged.

Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer.

Mr. Moulder. Do you know of your own personal knowledge of any persons who have made loans ?

Mr. Green. I know possibly 1 or 2 who might have made loans.

Mr. Moulder. Then do you refuse to answer as to who those per- sons are ?

Mr. Shapiro. May I confer with the witness ?

Mr. Moulder. You may confer with him.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Green. I can give you 1 or 2 names.

I can give you the names of Simon Federman and Sam Nelson.

Mr. Tavenner. What was the amount of their loans ?

Mr. Green. I don't now.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know the loans of any other persons?

Mr. Green. Offhand, none come to mind.

Mr. Scherer. Do you know the names of any other persons who have made loans for the purposes stated ?

Mr. Green. If I saw the list I would probably recall a number of others. I don't have a list available of those names.

Mr. Tavenner. ^Vlio has the list ?

Mr. Green. I assume the Sylvan Lake Holding Corp. has such a list.

Mr. Tavenner. Who are the officers of Sylvan Lake Holding Corp. ?

Mr. Green. Simon Federman.

1350 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

Mr. Tavenner. What is his position ?

Mr. Green. I think he is president of the corporation.

Mr. ScHERER. Where does he live ?

Mr. Green. New York City, in Brooklyn, I think.

Sam Nelson, I don't know whether he is — I think he is the vice presi- dent or secretary.

And then there is Abraham Estersohn.

Mr. Tavenner. Spell that name, please.

Mr. Green. E-s-t-e-r-s-o-h-n, who I think is the treasurer.

Mr. ScHERER. Does the corporation have an office ?

Mr. Green. I don't think they have an office of their own, no.

Mr. ScHERER. Do you mean the office of the Sylvan Lake Corp. is the same as the office of Camp Lakeland ?

Mr. Green. They receive their mail at the Camp Lakeland office; yes.

Mr. Scherer. Where is the Camp Lakeland office ?

Mr. Green. 1 Union Square West, New York City.

Mr. Tavenner. Did the Sylvan Lake Holding Corp. borrow any part of the $20,000 from any organization ?

Mr. Green. Well, I am in a peculiar position here. I don't repre- sent the Sylvan Lake Holding Corp. I am not a part of it.

Mr. Tavenner. That doesn't make any difference. I am just asking about your knowledge of it.

Mr, Green. I think they borrowed some money from a union.

Mr. Tavenner. What union ?

Mr. Green. Furriers' union.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell us more about that, please? What furriers' union ?

Mr. Green. I don't know the number of the local. It is a furriers' local in Philadelphia.

Mr. Tavenner. How much money was borrowed from the furriers* union in Philadelphia ?

Mr. Green. Between $20,000 and $30,000, I think is the amount.

Mr. Scherer. Is that the International Fur and Leather Workers Union ?

Mr. Green. Yes ; that is right.

Mr. Moulder. Pardon me. Did you get the date when that loan transpired ?

Mr. Tavenner. "\Ylien did that loan occur ?

Mr. Green. I don't know the exact date. It must be between De- cember or November and January.

Mr. Tavenner. Who negotiated the loan ?

Mr. Green. I assume it was the officers of Camp Lakeland, Inc.

Mr. Tavenner. Wliich officers of that corporation took part in the negotiations ?

Mr. Green. I don't know which ones took part in it.

Mr. Scherer. Do you know whether the International Fur and Leather Workers Union who loaned the corporation this money has a certificate similar to yours evidencing the indebtedness of the cor- poration to the union ?

Mr. Green. I assume they have some certificate but if it is the same as mine, I don't know.

Mr. Tavenner. What other organizations loaned funds to the Syl- van Lake Holding Corp. ?

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1351

Mr. Green. To my knowledge, I don't know of any other organi- zation.

Mr. ScHERER. And you can't recall the names of any other indi- viduals other than those you have already mentioned ?

Mr. Green. No; I can't.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether or not the International Fur and Leather Workers Union negotiated this loan through another holding corporation ?

Mr. Green. I don't know the details.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you familiar with an organization known as 1953 Holding Corp.?

Mr. Green. I am not familiar with that.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know of the existence of such a corporation?

Mr. Green. No.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Shapiro. May we go on the record a minute? I think the witness misspoke himself before in response to the last question, par- tially, I think because of the name which you ascribed to that corpora^ tion. It is not the precise name and that is why he misspoke himself on that, so I think we had better go over that again.

Mr. Tavenner. What is the correct name of the holding corporation that was an intermediary?

Mr. Green. I know the loan was gotten through an intermediary but I don't know the exact title or the name.

Mr. ScHERER. What is your best recollection of the name of the intermediary corporation?

Mr. Green. Will you repeat that name to me again?

Mr. Tavenner. 1953 Holding Corp.

Mr. Green. I don't think that is the exact title of it.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your best recollection of the title.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Shapiro. Do you remember the name ?

Mr. Green. No; I don't.

Mr. Shapiro. May I refresh his recollection ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Green. The 1953 Holding Corp. is the exact name.

Mr. Shapiro. No; let me correct that. The exact name is Fifty- three Holding Corp.

Mr, Tavenner. What part did the Fifty-three Holding Corp. take in this financing?

Mr. Green. To my best knowledge, they were the ones who loaned the money to the Sylvan Lake Holding Corp.

Mr. Tavenner. That is, a part of the money, because you have told' us that some of the money was bori'owed from individuals. Some of the money was put up by the fur and leather workers union, and now I assume you mean that an additional sum was put up by the Fifty- three Holding Corp. ?

Mr. Green. When I said the furriers gave some money, I was re- ferring to this money which was given through this Fifty-three Holding Corp.

Mr. Scherer. Do you mean the amount of money that the furriers- gave to the corporation was handled through the Fifty-three Corp.?

Mr. Green. That is correct.

Mr. Shapiro. In other words, there was just one sum of money to.

1352 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

be ascribed to the Fifty-three Holding Corp. and the furriers. Just one amount.

Mr. ScHERER. The Fifty-three Corp. did not act as a mediator for any other funds except the specific fund which originated from the International Fur and Leather Workers Union.

Mr. Green. That is correct.

Mr. Tavenner. Who were the officers' of the Fifty-three Holding Corp. ?

Mr. Green. I don't know.

Mr. Moulder. Do you know of any reason why the loan wasn't made directly to the Sylvan Lake Holding Co. instead of, by, and through the Fifty-three Corp.

Mr. Green. I don't know.

Mr. Shapiro. I don't think you listened directly to the Congress- man's question.

Your question wasn't why it wasn't made directly through the Fifty-three Holding Corp. It was made by the Fifty-three Holding Corp.

I think your question was, sir, why wasn't it made directly through the fur and leather workers union.

Mr. Moulder. I am wondering why the fur and leather workers union, if they were loaning the money, didn't make it directly to you instead of to the Fifty-three Corp.

Mr. Green. I don't know.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your address in the city of New York?

Mr. Green. 183 East 98th Street, New York 29, N. Y.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Anne Williams ?

Mr. Green. The name doesn't sound familiar to me.

Mr. Shapiro. Let me interrupt. He doesn't know her.

But you are acquainted with her. She is a stenographer in my office.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you recognize her as a stenographer in the office of your counsel ?

Mr. Green. Yes.

Mr. Tavenn'er. Was she one of the incorporators of the Fifty- three Holding Corp. ?

Mr. Green. I don't know that.

Mr. Tavenner. Was she also one of the incorporators of the Sylvan Lake Holding Corp. ?

Mr. Green. I don't know that either.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Molly Tallentire?

Mr. Green. Yes, she is one of the girls in the attorney's office.

Mr. Tavenner. Was she one of the incorporators of the Fifty-three Holding Corp. ?

Mr. Green. I wouldn't know.

Mr. Tavenner. Was she one of the incorporators for the Sylvan Lake Holding Corp. ?

Mr. Green. I wouldn't know.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Arlene Hersh?

Mr. Green. I don't know her.

Mr. Shapiro. Let me say for the record that she is also a secretary in the office but not employed by this counsel.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Rosita Krugthof, K-r-u-ff-t-h-o-f?

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1353

Mr. Green. No.

Mr. Shapiro. Let me say also, to clarify the record, she is also a secretary in the office but not employed by this counsel.

Mr. Tavenner. Was the latter person known to you as one of the incorporators of the Fifty-three Holding Corp. ?

Mr, Green. I don't know.

Mr. Tavenner, Was Arlene Hersch an incorporator of Sylvan Lake Holding Corp. ?

Mr. Green. I don't know.

Mr. Shapiro. Mr. Tavenner, may we go off the record a moment?

Mr. Tavenner. All right.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Tavenner. I do not intend that any connotation be given to the identification of the names of these persons as incorporators. As 1 understand they were employees in the office of counsel who pre- pared the corporation papers.

Mr. Shapiro. Would you mind adding that they are dummy incorporators so we will know what that means 'I

Mr. Tavenner. I have been assured that they are dummy incor- porators.

Who were the real parties in interest in the formation of the Fifty- three Holding Corp.?

Mr. Green. I assume it is tlie furriers union, but I wouldn't know any details.

Mr. Tavenner. Is Camp Lakeland operated for children, adults, or both ?

Mr. Green. Both.

Mr. Tavenner. How long has it been in operation, according to your knowledge?

Mr. Green. About 32 or 33 years.

Mr. Scherer. Where is it located ?

Mr. Green. Hopewell Junction, N. Y. That is 14 miles this side of Poughkeepsie, N. Y.

Mr. Tavenner. As manager, do you employ the counselors?

Mr. Green. No, I don't directly employ the counselors.

Mr. Scherer. Who does?

Mr. Green. The two directors are the ones who choose the coun- selors of the children's camp,

Mr. Tavenner. Who are the directors that make the choice?

Mr. Green. Harry Sandler and Dave Glaser.

Mr. Tavenner. You stated you do not directly employ them. Do you make recommendations to the directors for employment?

Mr. Green. No. They may consult me from time to time in! regard to some individual, whether I know him or not, whether I think he would be capable to hold the post of counselor, but they are the ones who do the choosing. They interview them and choose them.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you worked in connection with other camps besides Camp Lakeland in New York State ?

Mr. Green. Many years back I was in charge of the office of the Upper Ferndale Mansion. That is a resort in the Catskill Mountains.

Mr. Tavenner. "WHien did you work there ?

. 66838— 55— pt. 5 3

1354 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

Mr. Green. That must be back in 1928 or 1929.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you had a connection with any other camp ?

Mr. Green. No.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you had a connection with any other camp in the State of New York ?

Mr. Green. No.

Mr. Ta\^nner. Have you been connected with summer camps in any other State ?

Mr. Green. No.

Mr. Ta^tsnner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your em- ployment was prior to your taking the position of manager of Camp Lakeland, Inc. ?

Mr. Green. I was unemployed prior to my getting the job in Camp Lakeland.

Mr. Taa^nner. For how long a period of time were you unem- ployed ?

Mr. Green. For a period of about 4 months.

Mr. Ta\-enner, "\\niat was your employment prior to that ?

Mr. Green. I don't know whether that is relevant to this discussion or not and I don't think I should be asked to answer that question.

Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques- tion.

]Mr. Moulder. You are directed by the committee to answer the question.

Mr. Green. I respectfully decline to answer that question on the grounds that I can't be asked to testif}' against myself, the fifth amend- ment.

]Mr. Ta\^nner. How long were you employed in an activity which you refuse to advise the committee about ?

Mr. Green. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds.

Mr. Ta\^nner. How were you employed on January 1, 1953 ?

Mr. Shapiro. Do you mean in what job? Is that what you mean?

Mr. Taatenner. Yes. What was your employment on January 1, 1953 ?

Mr. Green. I was unemployed — 1953, 1 am sorry, I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds.

Mr. Tavenner. How were you employed on January 1, 1952?

Mr. Green. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds?

Mr. Tavenner. How were you employed on January 1, 1951?

Mr. Green. Same answer.

Mr. Tavenner. How were you employed on January 1, 1950?

Mr. Green. The same answer.

Mr. Tavenner. How were you employed on January 1, 1949 ?

Mr. Green. The same answer.

Mr. Tavenner. How were you employed on January 1, 1948 ?

Mr. Green. The same answer.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you employed at any time between January 1, 1948, and the time of your employment as general manager of Camp Lakeland, Inc., by thelWO ?

Mr. Green. Tlie same answer.

Mr. Ta\^nner. Do you refuse to answer ?

Mr. Green. That is right.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the IWO ?

Mr. Green. Same answer.

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1355

Mr. Tayenner. Were you a member of the IWO at the time you were employed as manager of Camp Lakeland, Inc. ? (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. Green^. Same ans\\"er, sir.

Mr. Moulder. Should we have the record show that the witness declines to answer by claiming the privilege under the fifth amend- ment ? Mr. Green. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Moulder. We will stand in recess for 10 minutes. (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)

Mr. TA^•ENNER. Are you acquainted with Max Bedacht, formerly IWO general secretary.

Mr. Green. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds of the lifth amendment.

Mr. Ta\'enner. I hand you a photostatic copy of the Ser%dce Men's Issue, 1945, of Fraternal Outlook and call your^attention to an article entitled, "Fraternalism in Our Veterans."

I will ask you to examine the photograph appearing in the middle of the right-hand column under which the name Cpl. Dave Green, IWO general council member, appears. Is that a photograph of you ? [Handing document to the witness.] Mr. Greex. I respectfully decline to answer.

Mr. Tavexner. Were you a member of the general council of the IWO in 1945 ?

Mr. Greex. I respectfully decline to answer. ^ Mr. Tavexxer. Did you serve in the Armed Forces of the United States ? Mr. Greex. I did.

Mr. Tavex'Xer. Were you a corporal ? ]\Ir. Greex. I was.

Mr. Tavexxer. I desire to offer the document in evidence and ask that It be marked "Green Exhibit No. 1," for identification purposes only and to be made a part of the committee files.

Mr. Shapiro. Might it be understood when he said he respectfully dechnes, he was doing so on the grounds of the fifth amendment, so the record will be clear ?

Mr. Moulder. The record will so show. Exhibit No. 1 offered by counsel, will be received and marked for identification only.

Mr. TA^^:xxER. I hand you now the February 8, 1954, issue of the Daily Worker and call your attention to an article entitled, ''Winnin<T of Bail for Dolson Cheered at Nelson Rally," and I will ask yo5 whether or not you attended the rallv for Steve Nelson, which is the sub]ect of that article, and which celebrated the decision of the Su- preme Court of the State of Pennsylvania which reversed Nelson's conviction.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Greex. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds of the hfth amendment.

Mr. Moulder. The question directed to you was as to whether or not you are the Dave Green referred to in the newspaper article of the exhibit.

Mr. Tavexxer. Pardon me, I asked him whether he attended that

1356 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

meeting referred to. I point out to you the third paragraph from the bottom of the second page, in which it is stated :

Dave Green. lAVO leader, pointed to the part the foreign language groups in America played in the Nelson fight.

Did you take part in the discussion at that meeting as indicated [handing document to the witness] ? It is on the second page.

(The witness conferred with his counseL)

Mr. Green. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence and ask that it be marked "Green Exhibit No. 2," for identification only and to be made a part of the committee files.

Mr. MoTTLDER. The document will be so received and admitted in evidence. ,

Mr. Ta\t5Nner. I hand you a photostatic copy of a telegram ad- dressed to this committee and I will ask you whether or not you can identifv it [handing document to the witness].

Mr. Green. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds ot the

fifth amendment. . t. +t,

Mr Tavenner. This telegram purports to have been sent by the

New York Central Committee, International Workers Order, by

Dave Green, executive secretary. . ^i i - j^

Were you the executive secretary of that organization on the date ot

the telegram, which appears to be September 21, 1945 ? ,. <► ^,

Mr. Green. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds o± the

fifth amendment. . , ,

Mr Twenner. I desire to offer the document m evidence and ask

that it be marked "Green Exhibit No. 3," for identification only and

to be made a part of the committee files.

Mr. Moulder. The document will be admitted m evidence and so

Mr. ScHERER. Did you say, Mr. Counsel, that the telegram was

addressed to this committee? Mr. Tavenner. Yes.

Mr. Scherer. Let me see it. . , , .i i.

Mr Tw^NNER. Will vou tell the committee, please, whether or not,

during the period of time that vou have been identified with Canip

Lakeland, Inc., the Communist Party has exercised any influence m

the appointment of personnel at that camp? (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr Green. The answer to that is "No." , . , , Mr Twenner. Are any members connected with the corporation

members of the Communist Party, to your knowledge?

(The witness conferred with his counseL) , <, .i z>i!^-u

Mr. Green. I respectfully decline to answer on the basis ot the htth

^"mt^ Tavenner. You gave us the name of the current president of the

corporation. What was his name?

Mr. Green. Sol Vail. r. i tt -i v. -p +i.«

Mr. TA^^2NNER. Do you know whether Sol Vail was a member ot the

^Mi\^ Green.' I respectfully decline to answer that question on the aroinids of the fifth amendment.

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1357

Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with this testimony given by Mr. Herbert A. Philbrick before the committee on the 23d day of July 1951, which reads as follows:

I believe that Sol Vail, V-a-i-1, taught a course at the Sam Adams school, and he was known to me as a Communist Party member and a member of IWO and JPPO. He was an undercover party agent because I know occasionally, instead of delivering material to his oflice, I delivered it to his home on Parks- dale Avenue in Boston.

Are you acquainted with the fact that that testimony was given before this committee by Mr. Philbrick?

Mr. Green. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Tavenner. My question is whether or not you are aware that such testimony was given before this committee.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Green. No, I am not aware.

Mr. Tavenner. Have any individuals been employed in connection with the operation of Camp Lakeland who were known to you to be members of the Communist Party ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Green. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Tavenner. Are there any individuals currently employed at Camp Lakeland known to you to be members of the Communist Party ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Green. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy of a page of the New York Times issue of August 27, 1937, and direct your attention to an article entitled "Communist Party Backs LaGuardia," in the course of which article there is a section considered under the title of New York County, there giving the names of certain persons running for office on the Communist Party ticket.

I will ask you to examine the third name appearing there for the office of sherifl; and state whether that name, Dave Green, accurately describes you as a candidate for sheriff on the Communist Party ticket?

Mr. Green. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a candidate for sheriff of New York County in 1937 on the Communist Party ticket ?

Mr. Green. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds of the firth amendment.

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence and ask that it be marked "Green Exhibit No. 4," for identification only and to be made a part of the committee files.

Mr. Moulder. The document will be so marked and received.

Mr. Green, were you a candidate for sheriff on any political party ticket during that period ?

Mr. Green. I respectfully decline to answer.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Green, on July 14, 1949, Manning Johnson testified before the Committee on Un-American Activities with regard to his experiences within the Communist Party in the United States, and I quote a portion of his testimony :

1358 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

Mr. Tavenner. I hand you now another issue of the Daily Worker bearing date January 21, 1936, and call your attention to an article entitled "Communists in the United States Open Drive to Aid Brother Party in Italy," and I will ask you if you took part in that meeting and to state the names of others who were associated with you in that work.

Mr. Johnson. Yes ; I recall this drive that was opened by the central com- mittee or national committee of the Communist Party to raise funds to aid the Communist Party in Italy. I was on the sponsoring committee and was active in raising funds and along with me on this committee were William Z. Foster, Earl Browder, J. W. Ford, Mother Bloor, Margaret Cowl, Gil Green, I. Amter, John Little, Max Bedacht, Ben Gold, N. Schaeffer, M. Olgin, A. Bimba, Tito Nunzie, C. Nemeroff, M. Perlow, I. Candella, Secretary D. Green, and Treasurer A. Blake.

Did you at any time serve on such a committee as that described by Mr. Johnson in the testimony ^Yhich I have just read to you?

Mr. Green. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Green. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. Green. Same answer.

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Scherer ?

Mr. Scherer. I have no questions.

Mr. Moulder. I do want to ask 2 or 3 questions. I don't recall whether or not counsel asked you questions concerning your place of birth.

Mr. Green. He did, sir. I was born in New York City in April of 1905.

Mr. Moulder. And you say you went into the service. For what period of time did you serve in the United States Army ?

Mr. Green, I served 20 months. I will give you my exact time. I was separated on the 6th of July 1945 and entered the service on February 5, 1943.

Mr. Moulder. In what branch of the service were you ?

Mr. Green. The Ninth Air Force, sir.

Mr. Moulder. In what countries did you serve ?

Mr. Green. I was in England, France, and Germany, sir.

Mr. Moulder. Were you in combat service?

Mr. Green. That is right, sir.

Mr. Moulder. "Wliat kind of discharge did you receive ?

Mr. Green. Honorable discharge.

Mr. Moulder. And did you receive any decorations ?

Mr. Green. Yes, sir ; I did. I can read them off to you ; Distin- guished service unit, European-African campaign. Middle East serv- ice medal. Good Conduct medal, and 1 or 2 others, Air Offensive, Ardennes, Central European campaign, Normandy, Northern France, and the Rhineland campaigns.

Mr. Moulder. Are you married ?

Mr. Green. Yes, sir.

Mr. Moulder. How long have you been married ?

Mr. Green. This is my second marriage, sir. I have been married for the last 12 years.

Mr. Moulder. How many children do you have ?

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1359

Mr. Green. Two children, I have three altogether.

Mr. Moulder. What service organizations, if any, do you belong to ?

Mr. Green. None right now.

Mr. Moulder. You are not a member of the Legion ?

Mr. Green. I was a member of the Jewish War Veterans, but I haven't

Mr. Moulder. That is all.

Mr. Scherer may ask questions.

Mr. Scherer. Did you serve in the Second World War ?

Mr. Green. That is right.

Mr. Scherer. Were you a member of the Communist Party during the time that you were in the Army of the United States?

Mr. Green. I respectfully decline to answer that question on the grounds of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Scherer. When did you say you entered the service ?

Mr. Green. February 1942. I got out in 1945.

Mr. Shapiro. I thought you said 1943.

Mr, Scherer. That is close enough. At that time Russia and the United States were cobelligerents, isn't that right?

Mr. Green. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of

Mr. Shapiro, Listen to the question instead of reading.

Mr. Green. I am sorry ; 1943 is correct.

Mr. Scherer. At that time, during your service, the United States and Russia were cobelligerents, were they not?

Mr. Green. That is right, sir.

Mr. Moulder. You have filed this statement in connection with the operations of Camp Lakeland, and I asked the questions I did to give you the opportunity to place on the record the favorable conduct and actions on your part in the service of your country.

I don't remember whether or not Mr. Tavenner asked you questions concerning the teachings and meetings, if any, that are held at the lake, and I now ask you whether or not there is any teaching of Com- munist philosophy, or shall we say any teaching concerning govern- ment at the camp ?

Mr. Green. Would you reformulate that, please ? I don't think I exactly understand your question.

Mr. Moulder. Do you hold classes and meetings with the people who are at the camp ?

Mr. Green. There are meetings held to discuss the program of the camp.

Mr. Moulder. Are there any meetings held where government philosophy is discussed ?

Mr. Green. Unless you mean by that, sir, that we tried to give the kids an understanding of our Constitution and of our democratic way of life, in that sense, yes.

Mr. Moulder. Then I will ask it more directly : Are there ever any teachings or discussions concerning communism?

Mr. Green. No.

Mr. Moulder. Do you ever have any speakers at the camp who speak to groups who are supporting the Communist cause or the Com- munist Party ?

Mr. Green. I might say that we don't ask anybody what their po- litical beliefs are when they are invited to become guests at camp. We don't ask anybody their political beliefs.

1360 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

Mr. ScHERER. That wasn't Mr. Moulder's question.

Mr, Moulder. That wasn't my question.

Mr. Green. For instance, we had some lectures on poetry and' literature. We have had lectures on the history of the contributions of the Jews to America. We had a lecture on Einstein.

This is the type of lectures we have.

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Moulder, I still don't think he has answered your question.

As I understand it, Mr. Moulder merely asked whether or not these lecturers themselves are members of the Communist Party or whether they support the Communist Party.

Mr. Moulder, I asked whether or not they support the Communist Party philosophy, or the party, either one.

Mr. Green. I will have to consult my attorney on that.

Mr. Scherer. I will withdraw it and break it down.

Are any of the lecturers that you have members of the Communist Party?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr, Green. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of" the fifth amendment.

Mr, Moulder. We will state the question this way again : Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not any of the persons who speak at the camp as lecturers are members of the Communist Party?'

Mr, Green. I have to decline to answer that on the grounds of the fifth amendment.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Green, Again I might repeat that we don't ask anybody their political beliefs,

Mr. Moulder. Mr. Green, did you ever speak to any groups that attend the camp on any subject other than the camp activities?

Mr. Green, No,

Mr, Scherer, Were you teaching any school up there, any class,, yourself, at the camp ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel,)

Mr. Green. If you are referring to the present period, the answer is "No."

Mr, Scherer, My question refers to any time,

Mr, Green. Then I will have to decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth amendment,

Mr, Scherer. Is it not a fact that you were teaching what is known as a leadership class or school at the camp ?

Mr, Green, I decline to answer that on the grounds of the fifth amendment,

Mr. Scherer. Is it not a fact that you were teaching a class at the camp from 1950 to 1953 ?

Mr. Green. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of the fifth amendment.

Mr, Scherer. And didn't that instruction, to some degree at least,, consist of the teaching of Communist Party organization?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Green. May I answer the following : I would like to go back to your question. Did you say the school between 1950 and when ?

Mr. Scherer. Fifty-three.

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1361

Mr, Green. To my best recollection, I never taught a school at Camp Lakeland between 1950 and 1953.

Mr. ScHEREK, Wlien did you teach a class or school at Camp Lake- land?

Mr. Green. I will have to decline to answer that on the ground of fifth amendment.

Mr. ScHERER. I will now come back to my previous question : Is it not a fact that you did teach at Camp Lakeland a class or a school in Communist Party leadership tactics ?

Mr. Green. I will ask my attorney again. (The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Green. I am sorry, I decline to answer that question on the grounds of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Moulder. I have just 1 or 2 more questions to ask.

Wliat are the facilities that are made available at the camp, say buildings and

Mr. Green. We have our own lake, we have a recreation hall, we have two ball fields, we have basketball courts, we have volleyball courts, we have all the sports and other facilities and boats and bunks, of course, with a dining room and all the facilities of a camp.

Mr. Moulder. About how many people can you accommodate?

Mr. Green. We can accommodate some 320 children and some 250 adults.

Mr. Moulder. Is that about the average attendance every year ?

Mr. Green. That is right.

Mr. Moulder. For what period of time are they at the camp ?

Mr. Green. Usually for 10 weeks, from July through August to Labor Day.

Mr. Moulder. After they leave, does another group come in ?

Mr. Green. The camp is closed for the rest of the year.

Mr. Moulder. It is just open for that period ?

Mr. Green. It is the summer only.

Mr. Moulder. Mr. Tavenner?

Mr. Tavenner. Who. solicited the $300 which you loaned to Sylvan Lake, Inc.?

Mr. Green. I voluntarily made that because I knew the campaign was on to raise the money.

Mr. TA^^ENNER. To whom did you make the loan ?

Mr. Green. Sylvan Lake Holding Corp.

Mr. Tavenner. "VVliat official did you pay the money to ?

Mr. Green. I paid it to the secretary, who was collecting the money.

Mr. Tavenner. Wlio was the secretary ?

Mr. Green. I think her name was Mrs. Melcher. She received the money and gave me a receipt for it.

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you advertise the camp; in what papers?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. Green. National Guardian.

Mr. Tavenner. Through what mediums?

Mr. Green. Through newspapers and through publicity circulars we mail out. We had ads this year in the National Guardian, in the Jewish Day, and in the Freiheit and the Daily Worker.

Mr. Tavenner. Any other papers?

Mr. Green. Those are the only four.

1362 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

Mr. Tavenner. I call your attention to an article appearing in the June 28, 1953, issue of the New York Herald Tribune by Mr. Herbert A. Philbrick. He refers in this article to summer camps in this language :

Proud parents of potential pinks received instructions last week concerning accredited summer camps for Communist Party indoctrination and training. In a party cell meeting held in the New York area last week, a list of summer sanctuaries was designated by a party leader as "approved."

The article then proceeds to name the camps which were approved,, and one of those mentioned is Camp Lakeland.

Do you have any knowledge of the Communist Party issuing an approval or accrediting Camp Lakeland in recommendations to others?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Green. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.

Mr. Moulder. Mr. Green, you are excused as a witness.

Mr. Green. Thank you, sir.

Mr. Moulder. Mr. Friedman?

Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Moulder. "Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Friedman. I do.

TESTIMONY OF KENNETH FRIEDMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, MOE L. TANDLER

Mr. Ta\^nner. What is your name, please, sir ?

Mr. Friedman. Kenneth Friedman.

Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that you are accompanied by counsel.

Will coimsel please identify himself for the record?

Mr. Tandler. My name is' Moe L. Tandler. My office is at 168-16 Liberty Avenue, Jamaica 33, N. Y.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, when and where you were born ?

Mr. Friedman. New York City, April 2, 1922.

Mr. TA^^:NNER. What is your present occupation ?

Mr. Friedman, General manager of Wingdale Lodge.

Mr. Tavenner. Is that a summer camp in the State of New York?

Mr. Friedman. It is a resort, yes, in the State of New York.

Mr. Tavenner. "Wliere is it located ?

Mr. Friedman. At Wingdale, N. Y.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your edu- cational training has been ?

Mr. Friedman. A year and a half of college.

Mr. Tavenner. What college?

Mr. Friedman. CCNY, a year at Pratt Institute and Brooklyn Law School. Actually, Brooklyn Law School and Pratt Institute was a defense institute training school for subengineering during, I believe, 1941-42 ; I don't recall exactly.

Mr. Ta%t:nner. W^ien did you last attend college ?

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1363

Mr. Friedman. This past February I took an evening course in liotel management at CCNY,

Mr. Tavenner. When did you complete your course of training that you spoke of a moment ago ?

Mr. Friedman. I didn't actually finish the course. I started the course. I didn't complete it. I went to, I would say, classes through March.

Mr. Tavenner. Of what year? . Mr. Friedman. 1955.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you acted in the capacity of manager of any other summer camps besides that of Wingdale Lodge ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Friedman, I would prefer to decline to answer that question, sir.

Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.

Mr. Friedman. I refuse on the basis of the first and fifth amend- ments, sir.

Mr. Ta\^nner. How many other camps have you been employed at?

Mr. Friedman. I would like to decline to answer that on the same grounds as the previous question, sir.

Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer.

Mr. Moulder. The committee directs the witness to answer the question.

Mr. Friedman. Once again, sir, on the basis of the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been the manager of Wingdale Lodge ?

Mr. Friedman. Since March 14 of this year.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you had any connection with Wingdale Lodge as an employee prior to the time you mentioned ?

Mr. Friedman. Wingdale Lodge was incorporated on March 14, I believe, 1955, sir. It was not in existence prior to that time.

Mr. Tavenner. Has the camp ever had another name ?

Mr. Friedman. No, sir. This corporation I helped organize at that time.

Mr. Tavenner. The corporation under which you are now em- ployed, or by which you are now employed, you say was formed in 1955. Did this corporation acquire the assets of another corpora- tion located at the same place?

Mr. Friedman. No, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. Did it build and construct the summer camp that now exists?

Mr. Friedman. No. We lease the property from a holding cor- poration which owns the property that Wingdale Lodge now occu- pies.

Mr. Tavenner. From whom do you rent the property ?

Mr. Friedman. Loujack Camp Corp.

Mr. Tavenner. Did the camp have a name prior to the time that your corporation leased it ?

Mr. Friedman, Another camp occupied it ; yes.

Mr. Tavenner. What was the name of that camp ?

Mr. Friedman. That was Camp Unity.

1364 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

Mr. Tavenner. How long had Camp Unity been operated?

Mr. Friedman. I don't know, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. Wlio are the present officers of the Lou jack Corp. with whom you dealt in leasing the property that you are operating as Wingdale Lodge ? • ■, r.

Mr. Friedman. Louis Pasternack was the gentleman who signed the lease as president of that corporation and their attorney.

Mr. Tavenner. Wlio are the other officers of that corporation?

Mr. Friedman. I don't know, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. I have before me a photostatic copy of the certifi- cate of incorporation of Lou jack Camp Corp. bearing the date the 7th day of July 1941, from which it appears that the directors named to conduct the business until the first annual meeting are I^uis Paster- nack— that is the individual you referred to, is it not?

Mr. Friedman. That is right.

Mr. Tavenner. Jack M. Epstein and Arthur P. Wendorf.

Do you know all three of those individuals?

Mr.FRiEDMAN. Just Mr. Pasternack, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether the other two are in any way connected with that corporation at the present time?

Mr. Friedman. No; I don't.

Mr. Tavenner. I understood you to state that your corporation is the Wingdale Lodge Corp. ?

Mr. Friedman. Yes ; that is correct, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. What is the correct name ?

Mr. Tandler. Mr. Tavenner, it is Wingdale Lodge, Inc.

Mr. Tavenner. Licorporated ?

Mr. Tandler. It is abbreviated. It is not spelled out in full.

I believe you gentlemen have a copy.

Mr. Tavenner. Who is the president of that corporation?

Mr. Friedman. Milton M. Schreiber.

Mr. Tavenner. Would you spell the name?

Mr. Friedman. S-c-h-r-e-i-b-e-r.

Mr. Tavenner. Who are the other officers ?

Mr. Friedman. Isador Dicker, D-i-c-k-e-r, and John Tozser, T-o-z-s-e-r.

Mr. Tavenner. You stated that the corporation rented the premises or leased the f)remises from a holding corporation? "What was the name of the holding corporation ?

Mr. Friedman. Loujack Camp Corp. When I referred to a hold- ing corporation, they are the property owners, as far as we know.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know by what corporation the business was operated prior to obtaining the lease by your corporation?

Mr. Friedman. I am sorry, I don't understand the question.

Mr. Tavenner. Was the Lake Ellis Corp. the one that operated Camp Unity prior to the time that your corporation leased it ?

Mr. Friedman. I have seen stationery about with that name on it.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know the names of the officers of the Lake Ellis Corp, ?

Mr. Friedman. No ; I don't.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether or not the Loujack Camp Corp. property was one of those summer camp properties mortgaged to the IWO and which became involved in the suit which the State of New York brought against the IWO ?

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1365

Mr. Friedman. No; I don't know about that, sir. Our lease with Loujack Camp Corp. didn't involve any of their problems at all.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know of the existence of a mortgage on that property ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Friedman. I was just informed that there is a foreclosure notice and that our attorney was made party to that foreclosure notice. Mr. Tavenner. Who gave that notice? (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. Friedman. Could I ask Mr. Tandler to help me on this ? Mr. Tavenner. Well, if it refreshes your recollection. (The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. Friedman. It seems that the State of New York has a fore- closure action against Loujack Camp Corp. Since we are the lessees of the property, we were made party to this foreclosure, and that — • what is the date ?

Mr. Tandler. It has been adjourned until the fall, giving the de- fendants time to raise the necessary funds. They have entered into a gtipulation.

Mr. Tavenner. In leasing this property, of course, you made an ex- amination to determine the extent of the indebtedness against the corporation ; did you not ^

Mr. Friedman. Against which corporation? Mr. Tavenner. Against Loujack Corp. (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. Friedman. No ; I didn't.

Mr. Tavenner. You mean you leased this premises without know- ing whether or not there was a likelihood of a mortgage to foreclose on the property ?

Mr. Friedman. We approached the leasing of the property on the basis that the Loujack Camp Corp. owned the property and was in a position to sign such a lease. The other business of Loujack Camp Corp. we did not investigate, to my knowledge.

My attorney tells me that his office did not, as well. Wliether there was an existing mortgage or not to us would not be the determining factor of leasing or not leasing.

Mr. Tavenner. The State of New York brought an action against the IWO and had assigned to it the mortgages on this and other camps before you made this lease ; did it not ? (The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Friedman. This may be a fact, but frankly I don't know it as a matter of knowledga^ I Iniow that what you say probably is true. Mr. Tavenner. Mr.^riedman, it would be a most unusual thing, 1 would think, for any corporation to take over a camp to operate it when it Avas involved as this camp was Avithout making some investi- gation ahead of time about this mortgage debt whicli was due the IWO. (The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Friedman. Frankly, the extent of our investigation was that the Loujack Camp Corp. were the real and true owners of the prop- erty, and that we could make a lease with the corporation.

As far as the debts and the mortgages held against that holding or owning corporation, frankly, we did not make any investigation in relation to that.

1366 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

The existence of a mortgage held by the State of New York was not made news to me until the stipulation was forwarded to our attorney and he asked me to sign it. As well, because our lease is a short-term lease.

The stipulation foreclosure falls within that lease time.

Mr. Tavenner. Yes; the mortgage was due during the period in which your camp was expecting to operate. It fell due the 31st of August; did it not?

Mr. Friedman, I understand from the stipulation that the agree- ment is that there must be payment of that mortgage at that time. But anything more about it, I didn't know.

Mr. Tavenner. Is it not a fact that Mr. Pasternack arranged for the formation of your corporation for tlie purpose of operating this business ?

Mr. Friedman. No.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you confer with him prior to the formation of your corporation about the proposal to lease this property ?

Mr. Friedman. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. What reason did Mr. Pasternack give as to why the camp would not continue to be operated by the Lake Ellis Corp.?

Mr. Friedman. He thought it was no longer profitable, I imagine.

I heard that this property was available for sale or for lease and then is when we went to speak to him about it.

Mr. Moulder. Did I understand that the State of New York was the holder of the mortgage?

Mr. Tandler. It became the holder by assignment when it liqui- dated the International Workers Order. That is my understanding. Is that correct?

Mr. Ta\t:nner. How many counselors or staff members do you have at Wingdale Lodge?

Mr. Friedman. During the week, approximately 68 or 69 ; on week- ends a bit more.

Mr. Tavenner. Who employed them ?

Mr. Friedman. I did, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. Were any of the staff members or employees of this lodge recommended to you by any members of the Communist Party?

Mr. Friedman. No, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. Have members of the Communist Party recom- mended the employment of counselors or staff' members or employees at any other camp operated by you ?

Mr. Friedman. No, sir.

Mr. Ta\-enner. Have you hired any indi^^uals to work at this camp who were known to you to be members of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Friedman. I frankly didn't inquire into their political beliefs at all.

Mr. Tavenner. That is not an answer to my question.

And you may not have made an inquiry, but, nevertheless, were any of them known to 3'ou to be members of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Friedman. I would like to refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Tavenner. May I ask a direction to answer ?

Mr. Moulder. Yes ; you are directed to answ^er.

Mr. Friedman. I refuse again on the first and fifth amendments.

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1367

Mr. Moulder. Do you decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth amendments ?

Mr. Friedman. That is right, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. Are there individuals currently employed at your camp who are known to you to be members of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Friedman. I refuse to answer the question on the same grounds as the previous one.

Mr. Tavenner. I have before me a circular advertising your camp for the July weekend 1955. Will you examine it, please, and identify it [handing] and advise the committee whether or not it is an adver- tisement for your camp for this year ?

Mr. Friedman. Yes ; it is.

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence and ask that it be marked "Friedman Exhibit No. 1" for identification only and to be made a part of the committee files.

Mr. Moulder. The document will be admitted and marked for iden- tification only.

Mr. Tavenner. It is noted from the advertisement that a person by the name of Elliott Sullivan was director of the entertainment group.

Did you employ him ?

Mr. Friedman. Yes ; I did.

Mr. Taat-:nner. Did you make any inquiry as to whether or not he was a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Friedman. No ; I did not.

Mr. ScHERER. How long before you employed him did you know him?

Mr. Friedman. I didn't know Mr. Sullivan before I employed him. I heard of Mr. Sullivan. I heard that he had worked at another resort. I heard he did a very fine job. And I was in the field of hiring somebody who did entertainment.

I spoke to Mr. Sullivan and was impressed by him.

Mr. Scherer. Wlien did you speak to him ?

Mr. Friedman. I think I spoke to him in April.

Mr. Scherer. Who recommended him to you ?

Mr. Friedman. I don't recall, frankly, the individual, but the person was connected with White Lake Lodge and he said that Elliott did a fine job at that lodge. I frankly don't recall the individual who said this.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Tavenner. What other camp did he operate, which you just referred to ?

Mr. Friedman. He didn't operate it. I understand he was in charge of entertainment at White Lake Lodge.

Mr. Tavenner. Where is that located ?

Mr. Friedman. Monticello, N. Y., I believe. I don't Imow whether it was White Lake, N. Y., or whether it was Monticello, N. Y. I don't know the exact location.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know how long he was employed ther? ?

Mr. Friedman. No; I don't.

Mv. Tavenner. Do you know why Mr. Sullivan's employment was tei-niinated at the ^Yliite Lake Lodge?

Mr. Friedman. I guess like any employment is terminated at a summer resort ; when the season is over, that part of the staff is out of

1368 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

a job. And next year that part of the staff, if interested in going: back to summer work, shops around for jobs again.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you mean to say that was the reason in his case ?

Mr. Friedman. As far as I know, that was the reason, because

Mr. Tavenner. In other words, you don't know the exact reason?'

Mr. Friedman. No.

(The witness conferred with his counseL)

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Elliott Sullivan was identified before this committee by Mr. Lee J. Cobb in Mr. Cobb's testimony of June 2, 1953,. as a member of the Communist Party. He was also placed at a frac- tion meeting of the Communist Party in New York by Mr. Martin Berkeley in his testimony before this committee on September 19,. 1951.

And on May 5, 1953, he is identified as a member of the Communist Party by Jerome Robbins. And on the 14th day of December 1954, Nicholas Bel a identified Elliott Sullivan, an actor, as a member of the Communist Party.

Was he known to you to be a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. Friedman. No.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you aware of any of the testimony before this- committee, of the individuals that I have mentioned identifying Mr, Sullivan as a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. Friedman. No, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. Would it have made any difference to you in his employment had you known it ?

Mr. Friedman. I would imagine I would have given it some thought, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. Would you have employed him?

Mr. Tandler. May I object here?

Mr. Moulder. The rules of the committee do not permit counsel to make objections as you do in the courtroom. However, you can con- fer with him and make any suggestion you desire to make.

Mr. Tandler. All right. I was not too fully aware of the pro- cedure.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Friedman. I am advised by the lawyer I will have to answer. I will try to give you the best I can.

I don't know, frankly, at this point.

In the organization of the lodge, and the organization of the enter- tainment of the lodge, many factors of whom I hired came to mind, why I would hire somebody and not another. Had I known this, I don't know whether I would have hired him or not at this point.

Mr. Tavenner. Referring again to Friedman Exhibit No. 1, I see Lloyd Gough was employed. "Wliat was the nature of his employ- ment?

Mr. Friedman. Mr. Gough never appeared at our lodge.

We employ weekend guest artists to come up and perform. Mr. Gougli was one of the artists that we had engaged for that particular weekend, but he never made it as a guest artist just for that one week- end.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Tavenner. Did you select him as a guest artist?

Mr. Friedman. Mr. Sullivan recommended the guest artists and

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1369

spoke to me about it. I would be the person responsible for his hiring and not hiring.

Mr. Tavenner. Was the hiring of Mr. Gough a result of Mr. Sul- livan's recommendation?

Mr. Friedman. It would be similar to any department head making a recommendation. I carry that responsibility, not Mr. Sullivan.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you know Mr. Lloyd Gough to be a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Friedman. No.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Ta\'enner. Mr. Lloyd Gough was likewise identified as a mem- ber of the Communist Party by the witness Jerome Kobbins. Mr. Lloyd Gougli appeared as a witness before this committee and refused to testify regarding questions about his Communist Party member- ship on the gi-ound that to do so might tend to incriminate him.

Were you aware of the appearance of Mr. Gough before this com- mittee and the testimony relating to him which I have read to you?

Mr. Friedman. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. Ta\^nner. He was also identified as a member of the fraction meeting of the Communist Party in the Screen Actors Guild by the witness Paul Marion when he testified on October 2, 1952.

Are you acquainted with Morris Salz, S-a-l-z?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Friedman. Yes ; I know Mr. Salz.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you worked in the same project with him at any time?

Mr. Friedman. No.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether or not he was employed at this camp at any time ?

Mr. Friedman. Which camp, sir?

Mr. Tavenner. Camp Unity, or, as it is now called, Wingdale Lodge.

Mr. Friedman. Well, Wingdale Lodge is not Camp Unity.

Mr. Ta^t:nner. It is the same place, is it not ?

Mr. Friedman. Yes, but it isn't the same organization.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know of his being employed at that place at any time?

Mr. Friedman. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. When was he so employed ?

Mr. Friedman. Last year.

Mr. Tavenner. What was his position ?

Mr. Friedman. He was in charge of the day camp.

IVIr. Taatenner. Do you know whether Mr. Salz was a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Friedman. No, I don't.

(The w^itness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Ta\'enner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether any persons known to you to be members of the Communist Party, be- sides Mr. Lloyd Gough and Mr. Sullivan, lectured or addressed the campers at your lodge?

Mr. Friedman. One, I don't know whether Mr. Gough and Mr. Sul- livan are members of the Communist Party.

Two, as far as I know, no one has addressed the guests at our place who are members of any organization.

6683S — 55— pt. 5 4

1370 rNTV'ESTIGATION OF COIMIVIUNIST ACTIVITIES

Mr. Ta%'enner. How many campers attend your lodge ?

Mr. Friedman. It varies from week to week. This week we have about 191 people.

Mr. Ta\t:nxer. Are they children? Adults?

Mr. Frjed^iax. Adults and children, sir.

Mr. Moulder. During what period of time is your lodge open?

Mr. Friedmax. We are open Decoration Day weekend. Then we were closed through June, except for a couple of weekends. Then we opened officially July 1 and stay open through September 6.

Mr. Moulder. Do you receive any income or money in connection with the operation of the camp other than from the charges and fees you collect from the persons who come there as guests ?

Mr. Friedmax. Xo, we don't.

Mr. Tavenxer. Were you employed at Camp Lakeland in 1947?

(The witness conferred with his comisel.)

Mr. Freedmax. Xo.

Mr. Tavexxer. Were you ever employed at Camp Lakeland ?

Mr. Friedmax. Xo.

Mr. Tavexxer. At what other camps have you accepted employ- ment?

Mr. Friedmax. I refused to answer that question before on the basis of the first and fifth amendments, and I will answer that question that way again.

Mr. Ta\t:xxer. Are you a member of the IWO ?

Mr. Friedmax. Xo.

Mr. Ta\-exxer. Have you ever been a member ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Friedmax". I will refuse to answer that question on the basis of the first and fifth amendments again.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Ta%'exxer. Do you have any personal knowledge of the opera- tion of the camp when it was known as Camp Unity?

Mr. Friedman. When you sj^eak about personal knowledge, I know it existed. Is that the question ? I knew it existed, yes.

Mr. Tavexx^er. Do you have any knowledge besides that ?

Mr. FRIED3LA.X. Do I know how they operate in an adult resort?

Mr. Tavexxer. Xo ; that particular camp. Do you have any knowl- edge about its operation, who its managers were?

Mr. Friedmax. I knew who Pasternack was, the manager of Camp Unity.

Mr. Ta\-enxer. Was he manager up until the period of time that your organization leased it?

Mr. Friedmax. Yes ; as far as I know.

Mr. TA^'EXXER. Did you ever work for Pasternack in connection with the operation of Camp Unity ?

Mr. Friedmax. Xo.

Mr. Ta\-exxer. What connection did the IWO have, if any, with the operation of Camp Unity ?

Mr. Friedmax. I don't know.

Mr. ]Moulder. Have you ever lived anywhere else other than in New York City ?

Mr. Friedmax. Yes.

Mr. Moulder. Have vou ever resided anvwhere else other than in X^ew York City?

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1371

Mr. Friedman. Yes. Not officially, in the sense that I have always kept an apartment in New York, even when I worked outside of New York.

Mr. Moulder. I mean were you ever absent and residing some- where else for any period of time other than just a temporary ab- sence ?

Mr. Friedman. For 6 months one time.

Mr. Moulder. Where wei-e you residing then?

Mr. Friedman. Mayville, N. Y. , Mr. Moulder. Were you employed there at that time ?

Mr. Friedman. Yes.

Mr. Moulder. What was your employment there?

Mr. Friedman. I was an organizer for United Public Workers of America.

Mr. Ta\t5nner. Did you at any time hold a position of director of Camp Wyandotte?

Mr. Friedman. I would like to refuse to answer that question, sir, on the basis of the first and fifth amendments, and if I could say a few words about that, I will explain why.

I don't want to get anybody involved with Camp Wyandotte in- volved with these hearings. I think they are very fine people there and, generally speaking, getting involved with committee hearings, particularly of this committee, doesn't reflect to the best interests of these people.

For that reason, I decline to answer on the basis of the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Tavenner. That was a different type of camp from the one that you are operating now. Is that what you mean to say?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Friedman. I will have to rely on the answer I just gave, that 1 refuse to answer that question on the basis of the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Tavenner. I ask that the witness be directed to answer whether or not he was a director at Camp Wyandotte.

Mr. Moulder. I direct you to answer the question.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. Moulder. The purpose, as counsel will tell you, of directing you to answer, is the Supreme Court has held that the committee must inform you that in your refusal to answer you may be in contempt of Congress. That is the purpose in so directing you and reminding you that you should answer that question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Friedman. I will have to refuse to answer that question on the basis of the first and fifth amendments, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist Party at any time during the period that you have operated a summer camp ?

Mr. Friedman. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the first and fifth amendments as well.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. Friedman. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the first and fifth amendments as well.

, Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at the time you were organizer of United Public Workers of America?

1372 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

Mr. Friedman. I refuse to answer that question again on the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist Party at any time ?

Mr. Friedman. I again must refuse to answer that question on the basis of the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Moulder. ( 'ongressman Scherer, any questions ?

Mr. Scherer. Xo questions.

Mr. Moulder. Do you have any further statement that you would like to make ?

Mr. Friedman. No, sir.

Mr. Moulder. I mean by that, do you have any statement that you would like to make concerning your services in the Armed Forces or anything of that sort? Did you serve in the Armed Forces?

Mr. Friedman. No, I did not.

Mr. Moulder. Referring to what you said awhile ago about an unfavorable reflection by appearance before the committee, I think every witness should be given an opportunity to say anything he desires which might reflect favorably upon his record.

If you have anything to say

Mr. Friedman. I don't believe so.

Mr. Moulder. You are excused as a witness.

Mr. Studer, will you hold up your right hand and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony whicli you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Studer. I do.

TESTIMONY OF NORMAN STUDER, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,

DAVID REIN

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please ?

Mr. Studer. Norman Studer.

Mr. Tavenner. It is noted you are accompanied by counsel.

Will counsel please identify himself for the record ?

Mr. Rein. David Rein, R-e-i-n, 711 14th Street NW., Washington, D.C.

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Studer?

Mr. Studer. September 7, 1902, Wliitehouse, Ohio.

JSIr. Tavenner. What is your present occupation ?

Mr. Studer. I am director of a camp.

Mr. Tavenner. AVliat is the name of that camp ?

Mr. Studer. Camp Woodland.

Mr. Tavenner. Is that at Phoenicia, N. Y. ?

Mr. Studer. Right.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your edu- cational training has been ?

Mr. Studer. I was an undergraduate at Oberlin College, and I re- ceived my B, A. degree at Columbia College and my masters from Columbia University.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you receive your master's degree immediately after you received your B. A. degree ?

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1373

Mr. Studer. Yes; it was immediately after. I received my B. A. degree in 1929 and my master's degree in 1932.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your em- ployment has been since 1940 ?

Mr. Studer. Since 1941, during the summers, I have been director of Camp Woodland.

Mr. Tavenner. Wlien did you first become a director at Camp Woodland ?

Mr. Studer. I was director of Camp Woodland, Inc., beginning the summer of 1941.

Mr. Tavenner. Prior to 1941, how were you employed ?

Mr. Studer. I was a teacher at the Little Red School House.

Mr. Tavenner. Wliere is that located ?

Mr. Studer. In Manhattan, N. Y.

Mr. Tavenner. How long were you a teacher there ?

Mr. Studer. I was a teacher there from 1934 to 1950.

Mr. Ta\t:nner. In other words, your employment when not en- gaged in summer camp work has been that of teaching ?

Mr. Studer. Right.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you teach that entire period at the Little Red School House?

Mr. Studer. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. From 1934 to 1950?

Mr. Studer. Right.

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your occupation now, other than that of conducting summer camps ?

Mr. Studer. I am director of downtown community school.

Mr. Tavenner. At what place ?

Mr. Studer. In Manhattan.

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been so engaged ?

Mr. Studer. From 1951 to the present.

Mr. Tavenner. What is the nature of that work ?

Mr. Studer. I am in complete administrative charge of this school.

Mr. TA^^NNER. Wliat type of school is it ?

Mr. Studer. It is a nursery and elementary private school.

Mr. Scherer. About how many students attend this school ?

Mr. Studer. About 260.

Mr. Tavenner. I have before me a photostatic copy of the cer- tificate of incorporation of Camp Woodland bearing the date 31st day of December 1941, from which it appears that Sarah Abelson, Regine Dicker, Hannah Studer, Norman Studer, and Rose Weitzman were the persons named as directors until the first annual meeting of the stockholders and were the incorporators.

How many of those individuals are officially connected with the corporation now ?

Mr. Studer. One.

Mr. Tavenner. Wliich one ?

Mr. Studer. Hannah Studer.

Mr. Tavenner. And yourself, Norman Studer ?

Mr. Studer. And Norman Studer ; yes.

Mr. Tavenner. Wlio are the officers of the corporation at this time ?

Mr. Studer. President, Norman Studer ; secretary, Hannah Studer ; treasurer, Meyer Parodneck.

1374 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell the name ?

Mr. Studer. P-a-r-o-d-n-e-c-k.

(Representative Morgan M. Moulder left the hearing room at this point.)

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Studer, is your camp operated for children, adults, or both ?

Mr. Studer. For children only.

Mr. Tavenner. Up to what age ?

Mr. Studer. Sixteen.

Mr. Tavenner. How many children are normally in attendance at the summer camp ?

Mr. Studer. The attendance has fluctuated. At this point 160.

Mr. Tavenner. How many counselors or staff members do you normally have ?

Mr. Studer. Approximately TO staff members. That includes coun- selors, maintenance, everyone.

Mr. Tavenner. ^Vlio chooses or selects and employs the counselors and staff members and other employees ?

Mr. Studer. I do.

Mr. Tamsnner. Has the IWO played any part in the operation of your summer camp ?

Mr. Studer. No.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the IWO ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Studer. Yes ; I was a member of the IWO.

Mr. Ta-\t:nner. During what period of time?

Mr. Studer. I carried an insurance policy which, with the demise of the IWO, was transferred to another agency, and I still carry that. The extent of my membership was the insurance.

Mr. Ta\^nner. Over what period of time have you carried that policy ?

Mr. Studer. I have no recollection, but I would say over the last 10 years at any rate.

Mr. Ta\t:nner. Did I understand you to say that the extent of your participation in the IWO was having insurance?

Mr. Studer. Right.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you also contribute to IWO publications?

Mr. Studer. I don't recollect whether I did or not.

Mr. Tavenner. The Fraternal Outlook is or was a publication of the IWO; was it not?

Mr. Studer. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. I have before me a photostatic copy of the issue of August-September 1939 carrying an article entitled, "Leather Britches, A Story by Norman Studer." Do you recall that?

Mr. Studer. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you make other contributions to the Fraternal Outlook?

Mr. Studer. You mean did I write other stories for it?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes.

Mr. Studer. Yes, I wrote several stories for publication.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you engaged in any other activities in the IWO besides that which we have mentioned ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) ' '

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1375

Mr. Studer. I don't consider that an activity as an IWO member.

I wrote several articles for children which I contributed as a con- tributor for the publication.

Mr. Tavenner. During the period you have been engaged in the teaching profession, have you been a member of the American Federa- tion of Teachers Union ?

Mr. Studer. Yes.

Mr. Ta\t:nner. In New York City ?

Mr. Studer. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you hold any office in that organization?

Mr. Studer. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. What was the office and when did you hold it?

Mr. Studer. I was vice president for a term, and there again my memory fails me, I don't recall just when. But I know I was vice president for a period of time.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Dr. Bella Dodd?

Mr. Studer. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. What local were you a member of in New York City?

Mr. Studer. I don't recall the number of the local.

Mr. ScHERER. Are you still a member ?

Mr. Studer. Yes.

Mr. Scherer. Is it the same local ?

Mr. Studer. It is no longer a local of the union. It is an inde- pendent union.

Mr. Tavenner. Your group, then, was one of those expelled from the American Federation of Teachers on the ground of Communist infiltration ; was it not ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Studer. As I understand, that was the ground given for the expulsion.

Mr. Tavenner. That took place at the same time in New York that the locals in Philadelphia were also expelled from the national organization because of Communist Party infiltration; was it not?

Mr. Studer. I wouldn't know.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever attended a national convention of the organization?

Mr. Studer. No.

Mr. Tavenner. At the time you were vice president of your local in the American Federation of Teachers, were there other persons holding an official position in that union known to you to be members of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Studer. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you at that time a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. Studer. I would claim the privilege under the fifth amend- ment not to testify against myself.

Mr. Tavenner. And therefore you refuse to answer ?

Mr. Studer. Eight.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member in 1944 of the Sunnyside Branch of the Communist Party in New York City ?

Mr. Studer. I again claim the privilege.

Mr. Scherer. Do I understand. Witness, that you refuse to answer the question on the basis of the fifth amendment ?

1376 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

Mr. Studer. Right.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you employ anyone in the operation of your summer camp known to you to be a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Studer. No.

Mr. Tavenner. Are there any individuals currently employed at your summer camp known to you to be members of the Communist Party?

Mr. Studer. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Tavenner. In the course of the conduct of your smnmer camp, did you secure as lecturers or as guest-artists any person known to you to be a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Studer. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Scherer. Are you a member of the Communist Party today?

Mr. Studer. I again claim the privilege of the fifth amendment.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your me- dium of advertising is ?

Mr. Studer. Through various publications which change from year to year as we can get response from.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you advertised at any time in the National Guardian ?

Mr. Studer. Yes, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. Does that apply to this year ?

Mr. Studer. No.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you at any time advertised in the Daily Worker ?

Mr. Studer. No.

I would like to add that we advertise in the New York Times. We have advertised in Parents magazine.

This year our only medium was the New York Times.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party in 1934?

Mr. Studer. I again claim the privilege of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Tavenner. That was the time you began teaching in the public school system.

Is it public school system ?

Mr. Rein. In private school.

Mr. Studer. I never taught in the public school system.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party in 1950?

Mr. Studer. I claim the privilege of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Tavenner. I think that is all, Mr. Scherer.

Mr. Scherer. I have no questions. The witness is excused,

Mr. Rein. I think I have the next witness, if you want to call Mr. Gustafson.

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your name, please, sir ?

Excuse me, wait a minute. I think we had better wait.

Mr. Rein. I would like to say, as far as the witness is concerned, he is willing to go ahead with just Mr. Scherer here, if that makes any difference.

Mr. Tavenner. I am afraid it does make a difference.

Mr. Rein. I will state he is willing to go ahead then with Mr. Scherer.

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1377

Mr. Tavenner. I am afraid we can't do that.

Mr. Rein. You say it doesn't make a difference. I thought you said his preference doesn't make a difference.

Mr. Tavenner. I didn't mean that. I don't think his consent or agreement to it

Mr. Rein. Would make a difference. If it did make a difference, we could indicate it on the record.

Mr. Tavenner. We can let him take a few minutes recess.

Mr. Scherer. We will stand in recess for a few minutes.

(Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)

Mr. Scherer. Due to legislation on the floor of the House and repeated quorum calls, we are unable to obtain a quorum of the sub- committee, and therefore this hearing will be continued tomorrow morning, July 29, at 10 : 30 a. m.

(Wliereupon, at 5 : 30 p. m., the subcommittee was recessed, to be reconvened at 10: 30 a. m., Friday, July 29, 1955.)

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES, NEW YORK AREA— PART 5

(Summer Camps)

FRIDAY, JULY 29, 1955

United States House of Repkesentatives,

Subcommittee of Committee on

Un-American Activities,

Washington^ D. O .

EXECUTIVE session ^

The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met, pursuant to call, at 10 : 50 a. m., in room 226, of the House Office Building, Hon. Clyde Doyle, presiding.

Committee members present: Representatives Clyde Doyle and Gordon H. Scherer.

Staff members present : Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel ; Raymond T. Collins, investigator, and Courtney Owens, investigator.

Mr. Dotle. The committee is in order.

Mr. Gustafson, would you rise and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Gustafson. I do.

TESTIMONY OF ELTON T. GUSTAFSON, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, DAVID REIN

Mr. Doyle. The chairman of the full committee, Mr. Walter, has appointed a subcommittee for this hearing, consisting of Committee Members Moulder, Doyle, and Scherer. Mr. Moulder is absent, but the subcommittee members Doyle and Scherer are present, making a legal quorum of the subcommittee.

Are you ready, Mr. Tavenner ?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.

Wliat is you name, please, sir ?

Mr. Gustafson. Elton T. Gustafson.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your last name ?

Mr. Gustafson. G-u-s-t-a-f-s-o-n.

Mr. Tavenner. It is noted you are accompanied by counsel. Coun- sel will please identify himself for the record.

Mr. Rein. David Rein, iTll 14th Street, Washington, D. C.

Mr. Tavenner. Wlien and where were you born, Mr. Gustafson ?

Mr. Gustafson. Manchester, N. H., December 30, 1905.

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your present occupation ?

^ Released by the committee.

1379

1380 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

Mr, GusTAFSON. I am codirector with my wife of Camp Timber- line.

Mr. Tavenner. Wliere is Camp Timberline located ?

Mr. GusTAFSON. In Jewett, N. Y.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your educational training has been ?

Mr. GusTAFsoN. I went to public schools in Manchester, N. H., to the University of New Hampshire, and to the New York University. I have an AB and an MA.

Mr. Tavenner. When did you complete your educational work at New York University ?

Mr. GusTAFSON. Well, I took my last course there, I guess, about 1933 or 1934, somewhere along there,

Mr, Tavenner. When did you become a director or codirector of Timberline Camp ?

Mr. GusTAFSON. Well, more or less automatically when I married my present wife,

Mr, Tavenner. When was that?

Mr. GusTAFSON. That was in December, the year before last. De- cember 1953.

Mr. Tavenner. "V^^liat was your employment prior to your work with this camp ?

Mr. GusTAFSON. I was an instructor at Brooklyn College.

Mr. Tavenner. How long were you an instructor there?

Mr. GusTAFSON, I was employed at the college from 1931 to 1953, I was instructor, I think, from 11)35 or 193G on. I don't remember the date,

Mr. Tavenner, Is this a camp which is operated only in the summer months ?

Mr, GusTAFSON. That is right.

Mr. Tavenner. What employment do you have while the camp is not in operation?

Mr. GusTAFSON. I don't have any employment.

Mr. Tavenner. Who is the present owner of Timberline Camp ?

Mr. GusTAFSON. My wife, Sarah Gustafson.

Mr. Ta\^nner. Will you tell this committee, please, if you know, over how long a period of time this camp has been operating?

Mr. Gustafson. I don't know exactly. I think this is its 14th, 15th, or 16th year, or something like that. It was operated up to last year as a parent-child camp, mothers and infants, 2- and 3-year-old chil- dren. We changed it last year to a children's camp.

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat are the ages of the children ?

Mr. Gustafson. Last year from 5 to 12 ; this year from 6 to 13,

Mr, Tavenner. Who were the owners of the camp in 1953 ?

Mr. Gustafson. I guess that it was my wife and her former hus- band. I am not positive.

Mr. Tavenner. What was lier former husband's name?

Mr. Gustafson. Maurice Iliedman.

Mr. Tavenner. For the purposes of the record, I think it should appear that Mrs, Dorothy K. Funn testified before this committee on May 4, 1953, and identified Maurice Riedman as a member of the Com- munist Party.

Mr. Gustafson, how many children were in attendance at your camp this year ?

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1381

Mr. GusTAFSON. There are 78, 1 believe, right now. Mr. Tavenner. How many were in attendance last year? Mr. GusTAFSox. We started off with 63. There was a few less than that during the month of August.

Mr. Tavexxer. Over how many months is the camp operated each

summer

Mr. GusTAFSOx. I am up there last year and this year for about 7 months, but the actual operation, for instance, this year, we had a few parents up over Decoration Day. The actual operation of the camp is 8 weeks, exactly. Sometimes, perhaps, a half dozen children and parents Avould like to stay over until schools open so we keep them there.

Mr. Tavexxer. Plow many counselors or instructors are employed at Camp Timberline ?

Mr. GusTAFSOx. Eight now I don't know exactly. Approximately 20. Maybe a few less and ma^^be 1 or 2 more. It varies.

Mr. Tavexxer. Would you tell the committee, please, how these counselors are employed?

Mr. GusTAFSOx. They apply for jobs, presumably through seeing our ads in the papers or because of talking to parents who had children up there, who had children up there last year.

Mr. Tavexxer. "Wlio has the responsibility of employment?

Mr. GusTAFSOx. My wife and myself. She does more of it than I do, because she has had far more experience.

Mr. Tavexxer. Are any of the counselors employed at your camp at this time known to jou to be members of the Communist Party?

Mr. GusTAFSON. Certainly not.

Mr. Tavexxer. Have any of the counselors or employees hereto- fore employed at the camp been members of the Communist Party to your knowledge ?

Mr. GusTAFSOx. I can only state for last year, and certainly not to my knowledge.

Mr. Tavexxer. Have any individuals known to you as members of the Communist Party been invited to the camp for the purpose of lecturing or conducting courses or entering into discussion forums ?

Mr. GusTAFSOx. Since I have been there no one has been invited for lecturing forums or anything else of that kind.

Mr. Tavexxer. You spoke of counselors applying for employment as a result of the advertisements in the press.

Mr. GusTAFSox. That is right,

Mr. Tavexxer. I hand you a copy of an advertisement under the heading of "Timberline Camp" and ask you if that is one of the advertisements.

(Documents handed to witness.)

Mr. GusTAFSOx. That certainly appears to be. I would say yes.

Mr. Tavexxer. This is an advertisement taken from the National Guardian, issue of April 13, 1955. I desire to offer the document in evidence and ask that it be marked "Gustafson Exhibit No. 1" for identification only and to be made a part of the committee files.

Mr. Doyle. It will be so received and so marked.

Mr. Tav'exxer. In what other papers do you advertise besides the National Guardian ?

Mr. GusTAFsox. Show Business, the New York Times, New York Herald Tribune, the Post, The Amsterdam News, Stuy vesant Town —

1382 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

I forget the name of the paper, a local paper, and five of the Afro- American papers, and the Age Defender, a Negro paper. To the best of my recollection, that is where we advertised this year.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you advertised this year or last year in the Daily Worker ?

Mr. GusFTAsoN. No.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the IWO ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Gustafsox. No.

Mr. Tavenner. During the period that you were a teacher, from 1931 to 1953, were you a member of the American Federation of Teachers ?

Mr. GusTAFSON. Yes, an affiliate, the New York Teachers Union; it was part of NFTU for some time. I have forgotten exactly.

Mr. Tavenner. Of what local were you a member ?

Mr. GusTAFSON. As I remember, it is a little hazy, at the begin- ning it was a college chapter of the Teachers Union in New York, and then that broke up later, as it grew a little bit, to chapters of various colleges in the city, and I was a member of the Brooklyn College chapter.

Mr. Tavenner. Did joii hold office in that organization?

Mr. GusTAFSON. I don't think I ever held office in the city imion. I wouldn't know the name of the office, but I am pretty sure I was once or twice, for a year, perhaps, a member and one officer or another of the local.

I\rr. Tavenner. What office did you hold?

jSIr. GusTAFSON. I frankly don't remember. That is very easy. It could be looked up very easily, I suppose.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a meuiber of the Communist Party at any time while you held that office?

Mr. GusTAFsoN. I am afraid I will have to refuse to answer that question, on the basis of my privileges under the fifth amendment of tlie Constitution of the United States.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you aware of any effort being made by the Counnunist Party to have members of the Communist Party elected to office in the local of the Teachers Union, of which you were a member ?

Mr. GusTAFSON. I shall have to refuse to answer that question for the same reason.

Mr. Ta^^nner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at any time in 1954 and 1955, when you were connected with the operation of Camp Timberline?

Mr. GusTAFSON. I refuse to answer that question also, on the basis of the fifth amendment.

jNIr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. GusTAFSON. I shall have to give the same answer. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist Party at any time?

Mr. GusTAFSON. Same answer. I refuse to answer on the basis of my privileges under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer?

Mr. Scherer. I have no questions.

nsrS^ESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1383

Mr. DoTLE. I wish to make this observation very sincerely to you, sir : I have often said, that I can understand how patriotic American citizens prior to April 1945, prior to the time Earl Browder was kicked out of the Communist Party leadership, might have gone into the Communist Party as a matter of research or philosophical research and investigation. I have not been able to understand how a member with college training could stay in the Communist Party, say, a year or two after Earl Browder was kicked out, because as I understand it, at that time, the Duclos letter came to this country, as a result of which he was deposed.

Of course that drew the lines pretty sharply, as you and I know, between the two systems of economy. You are in a line of business now affecting young American citizens. For the purpose of this statement, I am going to assume that at one time you were a member of the Communist Party. I am not criticizing you for pleading your constitutional privilege either. l-)ut in my work as a Congressman it makes me feel uncomfortable, shall I say, when men with college back- ground and training like you find it necessary to not cooperate with Congress to the extent of saying whether or not you are a member of the Communist Party now. Because you are a leader of American children in camp, I hope you will get yourself in a position where you do not have to refuse to say whether or not you are a Communist now.

I realize you are in no position, perhaps, to answer my off-the-cuff statement, but I am sure we in Congress feel very uncomfortable when we find American people that cannot come right out and say, ''I am not a Communist now."'

I have no further statement.

Mr. Ta^tnner, Mr. Sullivan will be the next witness.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Sullivan, will you please raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help j'ou God ?

Mr. Sullivan. I do.

TESTIMONY OP ELLIOTT SULLIVAN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, DAVID REIN

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, sir ?

Mr. Sullivan. Elliott Sullivan.

Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that Mr. Sullivan is accompanied by the same counsel who accompanied the preceding witness. • When and where were you born, Mr. Sullivan ?

Mr. SuLLiVAX. I was born in San Antonio, Tex., July 4, 1907.

Mr. Tavenner, "\^niat is your present occupation ?

Mr. Sullivan. I am an actor and director.

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you reside ?

Mr. Sullivan. Permanently?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes.

Mr. Sullivan. In New York City.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your present employment?

Mr. Sullivan. I am the director of shows at Wingdale Lodge.

Mr. Tavenner. Where is Wingdale Lodge located?

Mr. Sullivan. In Wingdale, N. Y.

1384 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your formal educational training has been ?

Mr. Sullivan. I graduated from high school and had, I guess, about 6 months of college. Mr. Tavenner. When did you move to New York? Mr. Sullivan. In 1929.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your record of employment has been since 1940 ?

Mr. Sullivan. I was in Hollywood making motion pictures until the time I went into the Army, which was in 1943. I got out in 1945. Then I worked in New York and Hollywood since then, not con- sistently.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what the nature of your employment was in Hollywood ?

Mr. Sullivan. I worked as an actor in motion pictures.

Mr. Tavenner. What screen credits did you receive ?

Mr. Sullivan. There are about 80 of them.

Mr. Tavenner. I mean give us some of them.

Mr. Sullivan. The most notable was a picture called Each Dawn I Die. Most of those gangster pictures in the 1930's. I should be able to reel them otf fast, but I can't recall any of the names at the moment. Three Sisters, Angels With Dirty Faces, Yankee Doodle Dandy.

Mr. Tavenner. What producers did you work for m Hollywood?

Mr. Sullivan. I worked for all the major studios.

Mr. Tavenner. Wlien did your work in Hollywood begin?

Mr. Sullivan. It began in 1937.

Mr. Tavenner. While in Hollywood, did you at any time meet V. J. Jerome?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Sullivan. I refuse to answer that question, sir, on the privi- leges under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Tavenner. When did you take up your profession in New York City?

Mr. Sullivan. In 1929.

Mr. Tavenner. When did you return from Los Angeles, from Hollywood — to New York City to continue with your profession?

Mr. Sullivan. I went into the Army in Los Angeles, and when I came out I came to New York.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been in New York ever since?

Mr. Sullivan. Except for one motion picture that I made where I went to Hollywood.

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat motion picture was that?

Mr. Sullivan. A picture called The Lady Gambles, with Barbara Stanwyck.

Mr. Tavenner. In what year did you return to Hollywood?

Mr. Sullivan. I think it was 1948.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been connected with the operation of any summer camps other than Wingdale Lodge ?

iVIr. Sullivan. I worked, yes, sir, at White Lake. That was 2 years ago, 1953, in the summer.

Mr. ScHERER. Is that a camp ?

Mr. Sullivan. White Lake Lodge, I believe it is called.

Mr. ScHERER. "\^niere is that located?

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1385

Mr. Sullivan. It is on a place called White Lake. It is close to Monticello, N. Y.

Mr. TA^^3NNER. Were you a member of the Communist Party while ^orkinf^ at AVliite Lake Lodge?

Mr. Sullivan. I refuse to answer that question, on the same ground.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party while employed by Wingdale Lodge?

Mr. Sullivan. I refuse to answer that.

Mr. Doyle. On what ground do you refuse to answer ?

Mr. Sullivan. The privileges under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Tavbner, Wliat is the nature of your employment at Wingdale Lodge ?

Mr. Sullivan. I put on shows there.

Mr. Ta-v^nner. Are you the entertainment director?

Mr. Sullivan. There is no specific title given to me, nor did I choose one. I simply put on the shows.

Mr. Tavenner. I have before me an advertisement of the camp which has been introduced in evidence as Friedman Exhibit No. 1, which refers to you as Elliott Sullivan, director. What does the word "director" refer to in the advertisement?

Mr. Sullivan. It refers to directing the shows that are put on there.

Mr. Tavenner. Was your employment to direct shows that were put on at this camp ?

Mr. Sullivan. That is correct.

Mr. Tavenner. And you have been employed there two seasons?

Mr. Sullivan. No ; just this year.

Mr. Tavenner. As the director of these shows, do you choose those who participate in them ?

Mr. Sullivan. No. The manager hires everyone.

Mr. Tavenner. I noticed in Friedman Exhibit No. 1, that Lloyd Gough is one of those who was taking part in the program.

Mr. Sullivan. Yes. I am familiar with it.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you select Mr. Gough for the part that he played in that program ?

Mr. Sullivan. Frankly, I don't remember exactly how it came about. The manager also knew Gough. It sort of evolved.

It is possible that I may have been the one to suggest him.

Mr.TAVENNER. To Mr. Friedman, do you mean ?

Mr. Sullivan. That is right.

Mr. Ta\t:nner. You say Mr. Friedman knew Mr. Gough ?

Mr. Sullivan. I think he did. I am not positive about this, but I seem to recall his saying he did know him.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether or not you recommended Mr. Gough to Mr. Friedman ?

Mr. Sullivan. The reason it may seem hazy to you is that a great number of people were under consideration when we were selecting people, or when he was throwing out names at me or I was throwing out names at him. I am actually not positive as to where this name came from first. It is quite possible that I might have mentioned him. I have known Lloyd Gough for a long time and worked in plays with him. I have known him to be an entertainer and a good one.

66838— 55— pt. 5 5

1386 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

Mr. Tavenner. Did you know him as a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Sullivan. I refuse to answer that on the grounds of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Tavenner. Was he a member of the Communist Party, to your knowledge ?

Mr. Sullivan. The same answer.

Mr. Tavenner. You knew at the time he was employed at this camp that he had appeared as a witness before this committee, did you not ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Sullivan. Yes, I did. I read it in the papers.

Mr. Tavenner. You knew that he had refused to testify before this committee regarding alleged membership in the Communist Party on the ground that to do so might tend to incriminate him?

Mr. Sullivan. I know that he did refuse to answer, yes.

Mr. Tavenner. You knew that he had been identified in sworn tes- timony before this committee as a member of the Communist Party, did you not?

Mr. Sullivan. I simply remember reading about his having ap- peared and having refused to testify. I don't remember anything about the testimony.

Mr. Tavi-:nner. Were there any otlier persons recommended by you for work at this camp who were known to you to be members of the Communist Party?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Tavenner. There might be an inference from the way I asked the question that should not be, so I desire to change the question. Leaving out of the consideration Mr. Gough, were there any persons employed at the camp for entertainment purposes wlio were known to you to be members of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Sullivan. I refuse to answer that under the fiftli amend- ment.

Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Sullivan, this summer you have regularly put on shows at the Camp Wingdale Lodge, have you not ?

Mr. Sullivan. That is correct.

Mr. ScHERER. Do you recall the show directed by you on the night of July 2, that is, the Fourth of July weekend? Do you recall that show at Wingdale Lodge ?

Mr. Sullivan. Can you refresh me whether that was a Saturday or Sunday ?

Mr. ScHERER. That was a Saturday night.

Mr. Sullivan. Yes, I recall the show.

Mr. ScHERER. You participated in that show, did you not?

Mr. StTvLivAN. That is correct.

Mr. ScHERER. You had 10 acts in that show, do you remember? Do you recall there were 10 acts?

Mr. Sullivan. I don't recall exactly. It is possible. Ten sounds right, yes.

Mr. ScHERER. Let us see if this refreshes your recollection : The first act was a chorus line of 6 girls, the second was a comedy act by you. Do you recall that ?

Mr. Sullivan. That is right.

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1387

* Mr. ScHERER. And the third was a girl who sang. Do you remember that ?

Mr. Sullivan. It is quite possible. I don't remember the exact order.

Mr. ScHERER. Then the fourth act that you put on that night is the one that puzzles me a little bit and perhaps you can explain it. Let me refresh your recollection as to what happened. It was a very short skit in which you and another man participated. Do you remember who that man was ?

Mr. Sullivan. Do you mean his name ? Do you want his name ?

Mr. ScHERER. Yes.

Mr. Sullivan. I refuse to answer as to his name.

Mr. ScHERER. I ask that he be directed to answer.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question. We are not satis- hed to accept your answer as given as sufficient. You are directed to answer the question,

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Sullivan. I refuse to answer on the grounds — rather, under the privileges of the fifth amendment as to names.

Mr. ScHERER. Was this man who participated with you in this act a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Sullivan. I refuse to answer that on the same grounds.

Mr. ScHERER. As I said, this skit or act was a very short one. I would like you to explain to me what it meant. It opened with you saying to the other man, "Want to buy a copy of the Bill of Rights?" And he answered, "How much?" You said, "Two bucks." And the other man said, "I will take it for a dollar." And at the time the other man said, "I will take it for a dollar," one of you passed money and the other one a piece of paper to the other. Then both of you said simultaneously, "You're under arrest."

Will you explain to me what that skit meant, what lesson it at- tempted to promote?

Mr. Sullivan. As far as I am concerned, a skit like that is a satire.

Mr. ScHERER. It is a little too deep for me.

Mr. Sullivan. It is an attempt to put into humorous theatrical terms things that are going on in this country today. That is a famous story of a newspaper reporter who took the Bill of Hights in some city or another and tried to get signatures on it. Out of some 120, I think he got one, simply because people are afraid to sign any peti- tions, afraid to, even the Bill of Rights.

Mr. ScHERER. As a Member of Congress, I find just the opposite. The people are willing to sign almost anything.

Mr. Sullivan. This is a story that has been reported.

Mr. ScHERER. I did not want to interrupt. Go ahead.

Mr. Sullivan. That is about it. This is an attempt to take that kind of an incident and satirize it in theatrical terms.

Mr. ScHERER. The explanation does not help me to understand the skit. Can you enlarge upon it in any way ?

]\Ir. Sullivan. I don't think so. I think I have explained it to the best of my ability. Except that I would like to say this about it : If there is any inference in your recalling this sketch to the effect that this is intended to be disrespect on my part for the Bill of Rights, I

1388 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

would certainly like to assure you that this is not the case, that I have the greatest respect for the Constitution and the Bill of Eights.

Mr. ScHERER. Does the skit itself indicate respect for the Bill of Rights ? Let us look at it a little more. You said, "Do you want to ■buy a copy of the Bill of Rights?" And the other man said, "How much?" And you put a price of $2 on it, and then sold it for $1 when he agreed to pay $1. How do you explain that?

Mr. Sullivan. It is one of those incidental jokes that comes in the middle of sketches sometimes. But this still does not derogate the Bill of Rights in my estimation in that skit.

Mr. ScHERER. I just cannot understand. If it does not do that, what does it do, or what is it intended to do ?

Mr. Sullivan. Well, sir, I do not think it is possible to take a single line out of context and try to make hay out of it, because I can't ex- plain one line. The purpose of the skit, as a whole, was to indicate to the audience there, in humorous terms, as I said before, some of the things that are going on in this country.

Mr. ScHERER. What do you mean ? What things are going on ?

jMr. Sullivan. This incident which has been reported in the press and in magazines of a newspaper reporter who attempted to get sig- natures to the Bill of Rights, and out of 120 people he was accused of being a Communist by some, I don't know, 20 or so. Everybody refused to sign it except one person. This, I think, is a very interest- ing comment on American life today.

Mr. ScHERER. You think this skit, then, is analogous to the situ- ation you just told us about, namely, the man trying to get signatures to the Bill of Rights?

Mr. Sullivan. I think the comedy lay in the fact that the man is trying to sell the Bill of Rights as though he was selling something subversive.

Mr. ScHERER. You said it is hard to explain a sentence or two taken out of context. I have not taken anything out of context, because I read to you, and you acknowledged that it was the entire skit. Let us go over it again. This is the entire skit so nothing is taken out of context. You and the other man whom you refuse to identify are on the stage, and you say, "Do you want to buy a copy of the Bill of Rights"? And the other man says. "How much?" Your answer is "Two bucks," and he replies, "I will take it for a dollar," And you sell it to him for a dollar, and then both of you say, "You are under arrest." Then there is a blackout and the curtain falls.

That is all there is to the skit. There is nothing taken out of context.

Mr. SuLUVAN. You were asking me to explain the line about the $2 and $1.

Mr. ScHERER. I have no further questions.

Mr. Doyle. May I ask a question, please. Is this a camp where children were in attendance ?

Mr. Sullivan. There is a day camp in connection with the camp.

Mr. Doyle. Were they in the audience? American cliildren of what age were in the audience ?

Mr. Sullivan. It is hard for me to tell.

Mr. D0Y1.E. Approximately. Were they teen-agers ?

Mr. Sullivan. Yes, teen-agers. We are trying to adopt a policy of keeping children under 12 out of the

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1389

Mr. DoTiiE. There were about how many high-school and college children in the audience?

Mr. Sullivan. It would be hard to say.

Mr. Doyle. Fifty?

Mr. Sullivan. I doubt if there were that many — 10 or 20.

Mr. Doyle. Were most of the people in the audience fairly young people ?

Mr. Sullivan. I think we have a mixed crowd, some young and some older.

Mr. Doyle. But there would not be many of them over 40 or 50 years of age, would there?

Mr. Sullivan. It is hard to approximate, Mr. Doyle.

Mr. Doyle. How many were in the audience altogether, approxi- mately ?

Mr. Sullivan. It differs with different weekends.

Mr. Doyle. 150 or 200?

Mr. Sullivan. Something like that, yes.

Mr. Doyle. I can give you my opinion of what this skit was in- tended to mean, in part, that the Bill of Rights was not worth $2, it was not worth 2 bucks. It is very clear that that is one of the things you men intended to get across in this alleged satire in theatrical terms on the Bill of Rights. You were asked how much and you said, "2 bucks," and then your companion said, "I will take it for a dollar." In other words, it is a deliberate attempt to cheapen the Bill of Rights as a matter of value.

Mr. Scherer. But today he is using the fifth amendment.

Mr. Doyle. Sure. It is worth more than a dollar today to him. It is worth using. We are glad to see a man use it if he can do it honestly and sincerely, and in good faith. But what do you mean by your claiming satire when you ended with "You're under arrest"? Why would a man be put under arrest for selling a copy of the Bill of Rights?

Mr. Sullivan. I believe in your home State, Congressman Doyle, some years ago, a man down in that square near the courthouse was frying to sell the Bill of Rights and he was arrested. That is a matter of record.

Mr. Scherer. He was not arrested for selling the Bill of Rights.

Mr. SuLUVAN. Wliat other implications can there be?

Mr. Scherer. Do you mean to say he was arrested because he was selling the Bill of Rights?

Mr. Sullivan. I don't know exactly what the charge was, but that is the way it was reported.

Mr. Scherer. You do not believe that, do you ?

Mr. Sullivan. I believe it is possible for this to happen.

Mr. Scherer. That a man was arrested for selling the Bill of Rights in the city of Los Angeles ?

Mr. Doyle. I do not know the incident, but I can thoroughly under- stand that an alleged American citizen who was undertaking to ridi- cule and subvert the purposes of the Bill of Rights to the American public should be pulled in and investigated, whether or not he was crazy or whether or not he was a patriotic citizen. That is probably why that fellow was pulled in.

You think it is all right for you folks in the theatrical profession to allegedly satire the Bill of Rights before a bunch of young Ameri-

1390 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

can citizens, by cheapening it, by saying it is not worth more than a dollar? I do not.

Mr. Stillivan. I don't either, but that is not my interpretation of this sketch.

Mr. Doyle. The language speaks for itself, Mr. Sullivan, plus your answer. That is the kind of thing that does subvert a constitutional government, a bunch of you experts in the theatrical or amusement world making light of our American Constitution. And that is what you did in this case. That is the way I see it.

Mr. Sullivan. I repeat, sir, it is a matter of interpretation.

Mr. DoYXrE. We are exchanging viewpoints.

Mr. Sullivan. That is correct.

Mr. Doyle. Thank God we can do that.

Mr. Sullivan. You said it.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Sullivan, as a matter of fact did you not from time to time endeavor by subtle means to get over to these young people what you recognize as the Communist Party line, through the medium of skits?

(The witness conferred w^ith his counsel.)

Mr. Sullivan. That is not true.

Mr. Scherer. What did you try to get across to them by these skits?

Mr. Sullivan. Entertainment.

Mr. Scherer. Is that all ?

Mr. Sullivan. Yes ; that is all.

Mr. Doyle. Do you think it is entertainment in the highest sense of the word — I am not thinking of the cheap sense of the word— for an expert trained in the professional world such as you to put on a skit that on the face of it makes a monkey or tries to make light, I do not know how else to describe it, except to make a monkey out of the Bill of Eights in the esteem of the people who are listening? Is that entertainment ?

Mr. Sullivan. Congressman Doyle, you keep repeating that, and I keep repeating it is not my intention to ever derogate or belittle the Bill of Eights. On the other hand, I hold it in very high esteem. The point of this sketch was not to in a sense even talk about the Bill of Eights itself so much as it was to satirize an actual incident that has occurred on the American scene.

Mr. Doyle. But the incident was not connected with the skit. The chances are that most of the people in the audience did not even hear of the incident. Why did you not connect it up with the incident, so it could substantiate your statement now ?

Mr. Sullivan. Well, sketches are written and done and they do not always have to be spelled out.

Mr. Doyle. I realize that. But the effect of that to me, sir, and I have directed several youth camps myself in the earlier days, is that you could not have helped but know in advance, as the expert public- relations man you are, that in the eyes of those teen-agers, the young ones at least, that the brief language you used and the way you used it would have resulted in those young American citizens taking a laugh at the Bill of Eights.

Mr. Sullivan. I don't agree with you, sir. I think if it alerted anyone to what is going on, on the American scene today, I think that

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1391

Mr. Doyle. You got a good laugh out of it, did you not ? You put it on for entertainment and you got your laugh. You could not have helped but receive a big laugh out of it, and that is what you designed it for, as I see it, as part of the entertainment of the camp, to cause something that would amuse and entertain and get laughs for your performance. That was part of your professional responsibility, entertainment. So you entertained these young people at the expense of the Bill of Riglits and cheapened it by getting across that it was not worth even 2 "bucks." It was only worth half that much.

Mr. Sullivan. There is an inference in your statement, Mr. Doyle, that seems to imply that somehow I saw there were young people there, and I saw an opportunity, somehow, to get some kind of a "dig" at the Bill of Rights. In the first place we did not want any children in the audience at all. We tried to keep them out. Mr. Doyle. You said you kept them out under 12. Mr. Sullivan. That is right.

Mr. Doyle. You were there with your eyes open and you saw there was a bunch over 12?

Mr. Sullivan. What I am getting at is that an audience is an audi- ence to me, and I do not distinguish between the young people and the old.

Mr. ScHERER. It would not have made any difference whether they were young or old, so far as this goes. Mr. Tavenner. Is this a young people's camp ?

Mr. Sullivan. No, it is not a young people's camp. It is an adult camp which has a day camp as an adjunct for families to leave their children in the day camp.

Mr. ScHERER. No matter what you say your intention was when you put on this skit, the party that reported the incident got tlie impression from the skit that you were doing exactly what Mr. Doyle said you were doing. Your intention, you say, was different from that, but at least one person in the audience did not understand it that way.

Mr, Doyle. The evidence that we have shows that there were at least a few college students there, and you entertainers knew the nature of the audience because you saw them. Your purpose was to provide entertainment, as you say, and get a laugh, and to amuse the people wlio had paid $30 to go there over the weekend. That is understand- able. But I am shocked, Mr. Sullivan, at your satire of the Bill of Rights, to cheapen it deliberately, or to at least cheapen it, I will say, by bringing out to the people present that it was not worth $2, that it was only worth half that much, and that is what you sold it for. Mr. Tavexner. Mr. Chairman, you were not present yesterday v^llen tlie manager of this camp, Mr. Friedman, testified. I asked him whether this was a camp for adults or children or both and his reply was that it was a camp for both.

Do you recall that another skit followed in which an individual sang a song m which he referred to certain victories at different places, the victory at Valley Forge, for instance, with the verse concluding with Oh, what a time it was," and then another verse regarding the victory at Gettysburg concluding also with the last line of "Oh, what a time that was." There was a reference to Nazi Chains, with the verse wind- ing up as, "Oh, what a time that was." And then as to a fourth vic- tory, the verse was entitled, "Our victory is endangered while freemen are m jail. Oh, what time this is."

1392 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

You recall that ; do you not ?

Mr, Sullivan. Only vaguely. I am trying to.

Mr. Tavenner. Was that a means of getting over to the people in the audience, particularly the young people, the Communist Party view regarding Communist leaders who were in jail as a result of Federal prosecution?

Mr. Sullivan. I frankly don't know.

Mr. Tavenner. Who sang that song?

Mr. Sullivan. I don't even recall. That is why I am vague about the recollection of it. I don't remember who sang it.

Mr. Doyle. Do you know who wrote it?

Mr. Sullivan. No ; I don't.

Mr. ScHERER. Obviously, that was the meaning of it.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall that this same person who put on that skit also put on another in which he made an explanation that, "There is a superstition among men in jail that if a light shines through the cell window they will be freed," and that this light is commonly referred to as the midnight special ; he further said, "A lot of men are waiting for the midnight special and each one of you," meaning the audience, "is a midnight special." Do you recall that incident?

Mr. Sullivan. I recall it, not fully ; but yes, I do.

Mr. Tavenner. You recall it well enough to identify that as having occurred ?

Mr. Sullivan. That is right.

Mr. Tavenner. Was that also born out of a desire to get across to the audience a Communist Party twist?

Mr. Sullivan. No, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. What did it mean ?

Mr. Sullivan. There are many dozens, in fact hundreds, of songs through history that have been written about freedom, and this, to the best of my recollection, is one of those. As a matter of fact, I think this idea of the midnight special was originated by a fellow named Ledbetter, a Negro prisoner who was later released because of his ability to sing, as well as I remember the story. So this is one of those kinds of songs.

Mr. Scherer. But in this instance, was it not used particularly in reference to the Communist leaders who are now in jail, and was it not intended to point out that each one of them in that audience was the light or the midnight special that was going to release those so-called freemen that were in jail?

Mr. Sullivan. That is perhaps a possible interpretation. If the implication is that it was deliberately selected in order to do this, I would say it was not.

Mr. Scherer. Your answer might carry some weight with me if that song stood alone. But that song is connected with other skits certainly, in my opinion at least, was sung for the very purpose that I just indicated.

Mr. Tavenner. Was there also a skit put on and participated in by you depicting 4 babies talking together acted out by 2 girls, yourself, and another man, and in which the characters talk about being grownup, with grownup people going around dropping bombs on each other? Do you recall that?

Mr. Sullivan. Yes; I do. .1^ iiuij ^.u-

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1393

Mr. Tavenner. Was that planned as part of this program?

Mr. Sullivan. Yes; it was put on that evening, I believe.

Mr. Tavenner. What was the purpose of the sketch ?

Mr. Sullivan. It was a funny sketch, again, dealing with what we consider to be humorous aspects of our daily lives.

Mr. Tavenner. Actually, is it not an illustration of using your profession to get across a certain viewpoint in which the Communist Farty was interested ?

Mr. Sullivan. No ; it was not.

Mr. ScHERER. Were you a member of the Communist Party at the time you put on these skits last month ?

Mr. Sullivan. I refuse to answer that question under the privileges of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party now ?

Mr. Sullivan. Same answer.

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.

Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions.

Mr. Doyle. May I suggest this to you, Mr. Sullivan. I have already stated how I interpret the skit about paying only $1 for the Bill of Rights. Instead of satirizing the American form of Govern- ment, the constitutional Government, and our daily lives in terms of ridicule and sarcasm and fear, why do you not, through your native ability and theatrical training, inspire people to strongly support the constitutional form of government and the Bill of Rights instead of allowing anything to come into your presence that would ridicule it or make it look cheap ?

You have the ability and you have the opportunity. In other words, why do you not satire it in some way that will give inspira- tion to the young people that hear you and see you in your able acting?

Mr. Sullivan. Well, sir, I don't accept the premise that I have cheapened the Bill of Rights in this sketch. I don't recall any other sketches or any of the other works we do on drama nights, at the mo- ment, but it has always been my intention to do precisely what you are saying, and to the best of my ability I have tried to do this, and I will continue to try to do this.

Mr. Doyle. I hope you put a lot more vigor, vim, and vitality into that objective, if that is what you have, because we certainly need it and the country certainly deserves it, and the world certainly needs and deserves it.

Mr. Sullivan. This I agree with 100 percent.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Sullivan, you are aware, are you not, that you have been identified before this committee in sworn testimony as hav- ing been a member of the Communist Party?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Sullivan. Yes ; I am aware of it.

Mr. Tavenner. If you desire to deny that testimony or explain it in any way, I give you the opportunity to do so.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Sullivan. No ; I don't care to comment on it.

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.

Mr. Doyle, Thank you very much, Mr. Sullivan.

(Whereupon the witness was excused.)

Mr. Taa^nner. Mr. Gutman is the next witness.

Mr. Doyle. Please stand and be sworn.

66838 — 55— pt. 5 6

1394 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and noth- ing but the truth, so help you God ? Mr. GuTMAN. I do.

TESTIMONY OF HERBERT GUTMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, VICTOR RABINOWITZ

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ^

Mr. GuTMAN. Herbert Gutman.

Mr. Tavenner, It is noted you are accompanied by counsel.

Will counsel please identify himself for the record?

Mr. Rabinowitz. Victor Rabinowitz, 25 Broad Street, New York.

Mr. Tavenner. A^^ien and where were you born, Mr. Gutman?

Mr. Gutman. New York City, March 18, 1928.

Mr. Tavenner. Would you tell the committee, please, what your educational training has been?

Mr. Gutman. Do you mean from the beginning?

Mr. Tavenner. Since public school.

Mr. Gutman. High school; a graduate of Queens College, New York, 1949 ; with a B. A. ; graduate of Columbia University, 1950, M. A.; graduate student at the University of Wisconsin, 1950 and 1953.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your present occupation ?

Mr. Gutman. I am currently unemployed. I am working on a book and doing private research which, if you are interested in, I will tell you about.

Mr. Tavenner. In what general field are you doing research?

Mr. Gutman. It is a social and economic history of the United States after the Civil War, with special reference to Pennsylvania and Ohio.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you at any time been actively engaged in the work of a summer camp known as the Camp Kinderland in the State of New York?

Mr. Gutman. I will respond to that question in the following manner. I have never hidden my views from anyone or my associa- tions. In the past I have worked in summer camps. I have worked in summer camps fi'om 1943 to 1948

Mr. Tavenner. When did you work in Camp Kinderland?

Mr. Gutman (continuing). In a minor position of counselor. I never held any directive or supervisory capacities in these camps, and I have had nothing to do with summer camps since that date.

Mr. Ta\'enner. Since what date?

Mr. GuT3iAN. 1948.

Mr. Tavenner. Now would you answer my question, please ? Were you actively engaged in any way in connection with the operation of Camp Kinderland ?

Mr. Gutman. With reference to that specific question, I will refuse to answer that question on the basis of the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 9th, and 10th amendments to the Bill of Rights.

Mr. Tavenner. You stated that you were a counselor at certain camps. That is correct, isn't it ?

Mr. Gutman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a counselor at Camp Kinderland in 1947 and 1948 ?

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1395

Mr. GuTMAN. I plead the fifth amendment and all the other amend- ments I pleaded and, therefore, refuse to answer the question.

Mr. Tavexner. Mr. Gutman, a young man by the name of Mr. Stanley Wechkin, a graduate of Brooklyn College and currently in the Armed Forces of the United States, testified before this commit- tee that at the age of 12 he attended Camp Kinderland at Hopewell Junction, X. Y., in the summer of 1947, and that he was also there the following summer, 1948.

His counselor, he testified, in the summer of 1948, was Herbert Gutman. Upon being asked whether he recalled specifically any in- stance where Herbert Gutman discussed with him what was apparent to liini to be the Communist Party line, he replied :

Well, he urged my member.^hip iu the Youth for Wallace movement. Mr. Gntinan —

lie stated,

was a delegate or observer to the Philadelphia convention of the Progressive Party in 1948. When he returned to the camp, he urged membership of the campers in his bunlv to join the Youth for Wallace group and we registered in this group.

Did you attend the Philadelphia convention of the Progressive Party in 1948 as a delegate?

Mr. Gutman. I decline to answer that question on the previous groinids stated.

Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques- tion.

Mr. Doyle. We are not satisfied that your answer was sufficient, and, therefore, I direct you to answer.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

]VIr. Gutman. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds previ- ously stated, on the grounds of the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 9th, and 10th amendments.

]Mr. Ta\t.nner. Did you urge Mr. Wechkin to join the Youth for Wallace group ?

Mr. Gutman. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.

Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques- tion.

Mr. DoYEE. We are not satisfied that your former answer was suffi- cient, and I direct you to answer the question.

Mr. Gutman. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds previ- ously stated.

Mr. Tavenner. According to the testimony of Mr. Wechkin, after joining the Youth for Wallace group he joined the Young Progres- sives of America in May of 1949, and in the same year the Labor Youth League.

In 1950, according to his testimony, his parents opposed his attend- ing the Jefferson School of Social Science. Wechkin testified :

I called Herbert Gutman on the telephone and I had him speak to my parents, and apparently what he told them was enough to convince them that my attend- ing the .Jefferson School of Social Science wouldn't be harmful. In fact, it would be quite beneticial.

Do you recall calling his parents with reference to his attending tlie Jefferson School of Social Science?

Mr. Gutman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre- viously stated.

1396 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend the Jefferson School of Social Science at any time?

Mr. GuTMAN. I decline to answer tliat question on the grounds pre- viously stated.

Mr. Ta\t.nner. At another place in his testimony, Mr. Wechkin stated :

When I came to Camp Kinderland in 1947, I was no Communist. I think that primarily through the influence of Camp Kinderland, and more specifically the influence of my counselor, Herbert Gutman, I did eventually become a Com- munist in succeeding years.

I should point out, however, that Mr. Wechkin did not become an organizational member of the Communist Party. According to his testimony, he had an appointment at Communist Party headquarters with an individual for the purpose of obtaining membership, but due to a confusion as to the time of appearance, the other party did not show up, with the result that ]\Ir. Wechkin never became a dues- paying member of the Communist Part3\

Mr. Wechkin was asked the following question by Mr, Owens :

Can you recollect, Mr. Wechkin, any other instances during your attendance at Kinderland which clearly portrayed to the cami)ers and to the people at the camp a Communist Party line or ideology?

Mr. Wechkin's reply was :

Yes, I can. The songs which we were taught and which we sang had a decided Communist character to them.

He testified that tliey sang Bandiera Rosa, an Italian Communist song, the concluding line of the chorus of which was "long live com- munism and the Communist Party"; the Soviet National Anthem; Spanish Civil War Songs, including Viva La Quince Brigada, which means "Long Live the 15th Brigade," which was the Abraham Lincoln Brigade ; and the famous Red Army song, Meadowland.

"These songs," he said, "were sung informally by large groups of campers. The words were taught either by the counselors or campers who knew them. In addition," he said, "the words appeared in a pamphlet called Sing, which was distributed among the campers and contained all the Communist songs referred to."

Will you tell the committee, please, whether, according to Mr. Wech- kin, the practice of singing these Communist songs occurred ?

Mr. Gutman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds previously stated.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Wechkin also testified that at the advice of his counselor in 1948, Herbert Gutman, he bought and read a book entitled "The Great Conspiracy," by Cameron & Kahn.

Do you recall whether that occurred ?

Mr. Gutman, I decline to answer that question on the previously stated grounds.

Mr. Sgherer. Was anything that Stanley Wechkin told this com- mittee untrue ?

Mr. Gutman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre- viously stated.

Mr. Sgherer. Is anything that he said with reference to you untrue ?

Mr. Gutman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre- viously stated.

Mr. Doyle. May I interrupt here ?

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1397

The committee will have to recess for a few minutes until we answer a quorum call. We regret the inconvenience it causes everyone. We will stand in recess and return in a few minutes.

(Brief recess.)

Mr. Doyle. The committee will be in order.

(At the time of reconvening following the taking of the recess, the following members were present : Representatives Doyle and Scherer.)

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Gutman, I hand you a photostatic copy of the June 28, 1953, article of the New York Herald Tribune, and call your attention to an article entitled ""The Red Underground, Propaganda Is Mapped Out Around the Rosenbergs," by Herbert A. Philbrick.

Please look at the paragraph in that article entitled "Summer Camps." The paragraph in question reads as follows:

Proud parents of potential pinks received instructions last week concerning accredited summer camps for Communist Party indoctrination and training. In a party cell meeting held in the New York area last week, a list of summer sanctuaries was designated by a party leader as approved. Among them were —

and there are certain named camps here, including Camp Kinderland.

(Document handed to the witness.)

Mr. Rabinowitz. May I ask the date of that document?

Mr. Collins. June 28, 1953.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you have any knowledge of the designation of Camp Kinderland or any other camps mentioned in the article by Communist Party leaders as appro vecl camps ?

Mr. Gutman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds previously stated.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party today ?

Mr. Gutman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds previously stated.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist Party at any time ?

Mr, Gutman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds previously stated.

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.

Mr. Scherer. I have no questions.

Mr. Doyle. I think, Mr. Tavenner, should we not at this point call attention to the witness and put into the record the fact that uncontradicted evidence before this committee clearly shows that the Independent Progressive Party in its inception was a Communist- initiated organization ?

Therefore, our questions to you, Mr. Gutman, with reference to the Independent Progressive Party, have a direct bearing on our responsi- bility under Public Law 601, to ascertain the extent to which the sub- versive influences were infiltrating any organization.

Mr. Gutman. I would ansAver that question by saying that I think that is a matter of opinion, sir, and I would remind the committee that it is my belief that this committee violates the fundamental prin- ciples of American democracy which have shaped the institutions which I cherish and which other people cherish and seek to uphold, that these fundamental principles are, one, the right of freedom of speech and association, the right to due process of law, and the right to a trial by a fair jury, and the right to be presented with witnesses.

1398 INVESTIGATIOX OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

I would further state that it is my belief that to attack the principle of freedom of association is to attack the principle upon which all of the great democratic gains that the American people have made in the last 300 years are based on.

I would refer you to Alexis Tocqueville's famous book, Democracy in America, published more than 100 years ago, which I imagine some of you people are acquainted with. Most people who are students and seek to understand American history are acquainted with this book, because it is a major commentary on our institutions.

Mr. Tocqueville, a very learned Frenchman, said once you deprive a person of freedom of association, you deprive him of the right next to liberty and the right to act in his own behalf.

Mr. DoTLE. We have been pleased to give you the few minutes to make your statement. I sensed you wanted to make the statement to us, showing your philosophy. You are a young American citizen. You have a great many years ahead of you in which you could be a very constructive force for law-abiding American citizenship instead of the revei'se.

Now that you have had a good opportunity to give us part of your philosophy about what this committee is doing, under established law. Public Law 601, which, by the way, is tlie law passed by your Congress, what have you to say about the philosophy of the Commu- nist Party in the United States ?

We have let you talk freely about this committee, and criticize it and condemn it. What about the Communist Party in the United States? You are a scholar, apparently, and well read. In your judg- ment, along the lines which justified you in criticizing your congres- sional law, what is your philosophy about the Communist Party?

Mr. GuTMAN. I would respond to that question in the following manner : That, sir, is a matter of opinion.

Mr. Doyle. No, give us your opinion about the Communist Party. 1 am giving you the opportunity.

Mr, GuTMAN. I would refer you to Judge Edgerton's dissent in the — will you let me finish my answer ?

Mr. Doyle. I am asking your opinion.

Mr. GuTMAN. I am trying to give you my opinion. I would refer you to Judge Edgerton's dissent in the Barsky case, in which he clearly pointed out

Mr. Doyle. We are familiar with that, young man, but I am asking you your opinion.

Mr. GuTMAN. My opinion is based upon Judge Edgerton's dissent, and the writings of the people like Judge Brandies.

Mr. Doyle. What is j'our opinion about the American Communist Party, not the Justices.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Scherer. Witness, you said your opinion is based upon some judge's decision. Is it not a fact your opinion results from your own membership in the Communist Party ?

Mr. GuTMAN. May I answer the previous question ?

Mr. Scherer. You answer my question.

Mr. Doyle. I yielded to him, Mr. Gutman.

Mr. Gutman. My answer to that question would be the following: As I said at the beginning of this testimony, I am not ashamed of any of the associations or opinions I have held in the past.

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1399

Mr. ScHERER. If you are not ashamed of them, tell us.

Mr. GuTMAN. I would gladly discuss these questions with any of the members of this committee outside of the hearing room.

Mr. Doyle. You discussed your criticism of this committee in the hearing room. Why are you afraid to discuss the Communist Party in the hearing room ?

What is the difference between your criticizing this committee freely, and we gave you the opportunity, and discussing the Com- munist Party, discussing whether or not you were a member of it.

Why do you not discuss that freely ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr, GuTMAN. I just don't choose to discuss that question with the gentlemen in this room.

Mr. Doyle. Of course not. We understand that.

Mr. ScHERER. May I go back to my question. Is it not a fact that you do not derive your opinion from a decision by the judge to whom you referred, but you have an opinion concerning the Communist Party as a result of your own membership in the Communist Party?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

JNIr. GuTMAN. I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre- viously stated.

Mr. Sciierer. I thought you would, because the speech you gave about the committee, sir, we have heard literally hundreds of times by persons who have been before the committee, who have been known and identified as Communists.

Your statement does not vary in the least from those statements.

Mr. Doyle. May I say, Mr. Gutman, in closing, I am assuming, from what evidence we have and what knowledge we have, association on your part with the Communist Party.

Mr. Gutman. That, sir, is an assumption.

Mr. ScHERER. Is that assumption of Mr. Doyle's incorrect.?

Mr. Gutman. Mr. Doyle is permitted to make any assumptions he desires to make.

Mv. ScHERER. My question is — and I want to ask, Mr. Chairman, that you direct the witness to answer — whether Mr. Doyle's assump- tion that you are a member of the Communist Party is an incorrect assum]:)tion ?

Mr. DoYiJs. You are directed to answer the question.

Mr. Gutman. I decline to answer the question on the grounds pre- viously stated.

Mr. ScHERER. I can only assume, then, that Mr. Doyle's assumption was correct, because you were given an opportunity under oath to state whether that assumption was incorrect, and j'ou criticized him for having that assumption.

Mr. Doyle. I made that assiim]:)tion, ]Mr. Gutman, and premise this brief statement by me on that assumption, because some of us practiced law for many years before we came to Congress, and we learned to make certain conclusions that we think are reasonable based upon the evidence and the information that we have. I am assuming that for the purpose of this statement.

You are a young American citizen. Why in Heaven do you not get out of any relationship that exists in your experience, either past or present, which puts you in a position where you refuse to cooperate

1400 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES

with the United States Congress in the field of subversive activities, if you have any knowledge of such activities?

You have a great chance to serve your country, but you certainly cannot serve it in the highest level of activity if you continue in any relationship wherein you have to be fearful that you might be in- criminated, if you honestly and fully answer and cooperate with Con- gress in trying to get at the extent to which the Communist Party is subversively trying to undermine our constitutional form of govern- ment.

Mr. ScHERER. Or recommend to 12-year-olds that they attend the Jefferson School of Social Science, which is Communist dominated and controlled.

Mr. Doyle. We cannot do other than believe the evidence we have about you.

That is all, Counsel and Mr. Witness.

(Whereupon the witness was excused.)

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Salz is the next witness.

Mr. Doyle. Will you please rise ?

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and noth- ing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Salz. I do.

TESTIMONY OF MORRIS SALZ, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,

VICTOR RABINOWITZ

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir?

Mr. Salz. Morris Salz.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your first and last names?

Mr. Salz. M-o-r-r-i-s S-a-l-z.

Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that the witness is accompanied by the same counsel who accompanied the preceding witness.

When and where were yoif ^orn, Mr. Salz ?

Mr. Salz. June 18, 1910, Newark, N. J.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your present occupation?

Mr. Salz. I am a camp director, a day camp, the Straight Arrow Camp.

Mr. Tavenner. "Where is that camp located ?

Mr. Salz. New York State, Golden's Bridge, N. Y.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your formal educational training has been?

Mr. Salz. I graduated from the New York City High School, Teacher Training School, NYU, received my degree in education.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you had any other course of training or schooling ?

Mr. Salz. What do you mean by that question ?

Mr. Tavenner. Have you attended any other schools or engaged in any other educational training?

Mr. Salz. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques- tion.

Mr. Doyle. We cannot accept that as a satisfactory answer, Wit- ness, and I direct you to answer the question. (The witness conferred with his counsel.)

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES 1401

Mr. Salz. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, how you have been employed since 1945 ?

Mr. Salz. I refuse to answer that question, too, on the basis of the fifth and first amendments.

Mr. ScHERER. Witness, did you ever go to the Jefferson School of Social Science?

Mr. Salz. I refuse to answer that question on the fifth and first amendments.

Mr. ScHERER. Did you receive any training outside the (Jnited States?

Mr. Salz. I refuse to answer that question on the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. ScHERER. Did you ever travel outside the United States?

Mr. Salz. I have never been outside the United States.

Mr. ScHERER. Then I submit, Mr. Chairman, that the witness should again be directed to answer the question whether he ever received any educational training outside of the United States.

Mr. Salz. The answer is "No."'

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Salz, will you tell the committee, please, how you have been employed

Mr. Salz. I refuse to answer that on the basis of the first and fifth